Windy Sydney

All emphasis is mine...

Janice Peterson - Daily Herald

PROVO -- A Brigham Young University student was arrested on attempted kidnapping and assault charges Thursday after he allegedly used a stun gun on a woman and tried to handcuff her.

Police say Stetson Hallam, 20, was the 19-year-old woman's home teacher in their LDS ward, and the two lived in the same apartment complex south of BYU. Provo police Sgt. Mark Crosby said Hallam had pursued the woman romantically, but she did not have any interest in him. He was persistent in trying to date her, Crosby said, to the point where she felt "creeped out" by Hallam.

Look at this sleeze-ball! He was called to be a home teacher by his bishop and fell in love with a woman. He probably felt the spirit telling him that they were destined to be together for eternity. What do you want to bet? After all, he's a priesthood holder and he can get promptings from God, right?

Where was the spirit warning this woman that she needed to GTF away from this weirdo? Where was the spirit when he was "called by God" to be her home teacher? What kind of promptings did this asshole's bishop get when he called this guy for this position, and who did he get these promptings from??

According to a police affidavit, Hallam repeatedly contacted the woman, telling her he had a gift for her. She put off meeting with Hallam until she could have a roommate present, police say, and she was successful until Tuesday.

Around 3 p.m. that day, Hallam contacted the woman and asked to meet with her, according to the affidavit. She reportedly told him she could not because she would be working until 9:30 p.m., and she said he could leave the gift at her apartment. However, when she arrived at her apartment complex, she saw Hallam standing outside and felt he was waiting for her, according to the affidavit. She went to her apartment through a side entrance, but allegedly found Hallam waiting for her at her door.

Hallam allegedly convinced the woman to come with him to a common laundry room in the basement of the complex, where he told her one of his roommates had helped him set up a scavenger hunt for the woman's gift. The woman reportedly told police she could see no signs of other people present and became suspicious.

Gifts from home teachers are nothing new. They are usually little cards or photos of Jesus with candy attached, or bags of candy with scripture verses from the Book of Mormon... even the scavenger hunt thing is believable. When I was in young womens, this was promoted as just a good time with a healthy interaction between the young men and women. However, these are grown ass adults. A scavenger hunt? This is BYU for you... stunting the ability for these people to grow up!

I have had home teachers and even an over zealous young women's leader wait for me at my place until I got home from work back in the day. It was creepy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Mormonism for this guy's behavior... but I do think that the woman was too lenient on the man because of their religion. You will see why in a minute...

According to the affidavit, Hallam told the woman the gift was "junk art" and was located in a bin underneath a table in the room. The woman reportedly described the bin to police as five feet long by two feet wide and three feet tall, with a lockable lid and handles. Hallam reportedly told the woman some of her gift was Easter candy, which he had left in his car. He then allegedly left the room, during which time the woman did not approach the bin, believing it may be part of a practical joke, according to police.

When Hallam returned, he allegedly encouraged the woman to open the bin and pulled it out from under the table to alleviate her fear, according to the affidavit. The woman then reportedly opened the bin and found it to be empty.

At this point, Hallam allegedly produced a stun gun, a handheld rectangular device with two metal prongs on the end. He allegedly pressed the device against the woman's arm and she felt a surge pass through her body, according to the affidavit. Police say the surge incapacitated the woman and caused her to collapse to the floor, at which point Hallam pinned her to the ground.

Hmmm.... interesting, isn't it?

Seriously... my intuition would have been screaming at me to get the fuck out of there and she let him in? She went to the laundry room? She opened the box?

I'm not trying to poke fun at her or even claim that she was stupid... I can't imagine the terror she was going through at the moment. Please don't think I'm trying to be cold and mean. I'm just trying to make the point that the spirit wasn't really protecting her that day... was it?

The woman reportedly became frightened for her life and did not know what Hallam's true intentions were, according to the affidavit. She allegedly began screaming and fighting Hallam, who police say placed his hand over her mouth. He also allegedly produced a pair of handcuffs and put one of the rings on the woman's left hand. While he was applying the handcuffs, police say, Hallam's hand slipped and his finger went into the woman's mouth. She allegedly bit down on his finger until he let her go and apologized, claiming it was all an April Fool's joke.

The woman was able to get away and reported the incident to police April 8, according to police. Crosby said he did not know why the report was delayed, but a delay is common with this type of allegations. When she reported the incident, burn marks were still visible on her arm, as was bruising on her wrist, Crosby said.

"Several days later, we're still able to have signs," he said.

Police conducted a search on Hallam's room and car late Thursday night, but Crosby said he does not know what was found. Crosby said police were interested in finding the bin the girl described, which was not an item usually found in the laundry room. Although Crosby said Hallam never tried to force the woman into the bin or trick her into getting inside, he said it is still an important piece of evidence given the circumstances.

I would love to know why she didn't report the incident when it happened... did she go to her bishop first? Did she talk about it with friends or other leaders at either church or BYU? Did they ask her to delay the reporting?

I could be wrong here... but they have done this sort of thing in regards to other criminal behavior before. Especially when it includes sexual crimes and priesthood holders. Scout leaders, bishops, and others were given a "repent and all is well," free pass. Were they trying to help this guy?

"His whole premise was wanting her to open that box," he said.

Hallam was arrested Thursday night and booked into the Utah County Jail, where he is being held on a $5,000 bond on third-degree felony charges of aggravated assault and attempted kidnapping. According to the affidavit, police found a bite mark on the middle finger of Hallam's left hand.

Crosby said police are interviewing Hallam's roommates, but are uncertain which roommate he may have been referring to with the scavenger hunt because Hallam would not speak with police.

"He's not cooperating with us," Crosby said.

Crosby said Hallam does not appear to have any criminal history, and police have found no evidence so far of any history of mental illness.

"That's something that we're going to follow up on," he said.

Carri Jenkins, spokeswoman for BYU, said she had little information about the incident Friday. However, she confirmed that Hallam is a sophomore at the university. She said the university's Honor Code Office will now begin its own review of the incident to determine what actions should be taken. If it is determined that a person is a danger to the community, he or she may be banned from campus, but Jenkins said she does not know what decision will be made in this case.

"Every case is handled on an individual basis," she said.

He was arrested for aggrivated assault and attempted kidnapping. If the police have grounds to arrest him and hold him on bond, what other kinds of evidence do you need to know he broke the fucking honor code?

Come on!

The guy is a menace who was probably planning on kidnapping that woman and taking her away in that ridiculous box of his!

Yes, lets pray on it and make sure we are making the right decision. We need to make sure he's a real danger to the Lord's University before booting his ass off campus... after all, he's a priesthood holder, right?

Personally, I'd like to find him and wipe that smug look off his face... unfortunately for me, I have too much self control for that kind of thing... something he might want to google and do research on: self control.

What a mess.

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We all know that if we were not raised in whatever religion we happen to have been born into, we probably wouldn't believe in things like Jesus, large arks containing two of every animal, talking bushes, and the rapture.

I would have never believed... EVER... that a man named Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I wouldn't have been duped into feeling guilty that I didn't want to marry at 19 and have tons of babies with a return missionary, I wouldn't have gone through one of the hardest times I have ever had in my life. Realizing that Mormonism, and then God, were not really true.

After coming to the realization, I had to mourn my deceased loved ones all over again. Of course I was sad when they passed away, but in my heart I felt I would see them again, and that made me feel better. Now, understanding and taking into account all of the information at my fingertips, I have to realize that there might not be anything after we die, and that they really might be gone. Forever. It's not a good feeling, as a matter of fact, the first time I thought about this I cried for hours.

I was brainwashed into thinking these things. I didn't CHOOSE to believe in them, they were taught to me. By my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, neighbors, schoolteachers, and almost everyone I came into contact with in my hometown in Utah. Of course I believed them, why would they lie to me?

They didn't know they were lying to me.

Thats the thing.

They believed because they were taught to believe... just like I was.

I thought I would share some videos that really depict how kids are brainwashed into believing religious dogma. They are worth watching, and they really make you think... they might make you angry as well. :\



This kid reminds me of Lurch from the Adam's family:


Sounds like Lurch, too... doesn't he?

What is crazier than getting a group of teenagers together and having them make a video expressing the thought that everyone was going to die in the near distant future? Seriously... what the fuck?? Christians don't even think twice about this because they are so convinced the end of days in near, that we will all face judgment before a God, and that it is their duty to convince everyone else to subscribe to the same beliefs.

How would they feel if a Voodoo Priestess made a similar video, expressing the idea that all kids were going to die in the near distant future and she was the only one who could cast a spell and help them live for eternity? Is that really any different? Both sides are convinced they are correct, and both sides are mistaken IMO.

In this next video we see another approach to getting your kids to believe dogma:



Oh, that will teach him to be an atheist! Take away Christmas! No presents for the kid unless he agrees that Jesus Christ is his savior!

Again, WTF is this woman thinking? Is she taking into account that her Christian beliefs are not in harmony with her behavior to her son? Did she just walk up to him, threaten him, tell him to give her a "fucking break Michael," and get in his face like that?

Hypocrite much?



This lady is a well-known wack-job who was the main focus of the documentary "Jesus Camp."

She had these kids crying, singing, speaking in tongues, convulsing on the floor, and promising to devote themselves to the "War" against the devil.

One of her comments in this video gives me the chills...

"I believe this so much, that I have given my whole life to see to it that you get there."

She is a gifted speaker. She has the kids right in the palm of her hand. Making the kids feel like they are really important to her, to God, to the supposed war that is taking place. Telling them Harry Potter is evil, challenging them that they are one person at church and another at home or with their friends, telling them that they do things they shouldn't do (HOW WOULD SHE KNOW???) talk dirty (HUH?) and the kids look at her with awe and tears in their eyes.

She has CONVINCED these kids that they are bad, sinners, that they don't deserve the things they have, that they are selfish in their lives. Why is this so important to religious groups? Guilty people want to feel better.

What does this do to a kids self-esteem, though?

Personally, I would constantly question myself and my actions as a child. Would God be okay with what I was doing? Was I trying hard enough? Was I good enough?

I had nothing to feel guilty about. I was a good kid. I was on the honor roll, I had friends that I loved dearly, I didn't lie, cheat, or steal... yet I was made to feel like I was scum, and the only thing that could make me better was Jesus, God, Joe Smith, the Mormon Prophet and of course the religious dogma that caused the guilt in the first place.

This goes on and on in a person's life. I was 28 years old when I stopped believing in Mormonism. I was a grown woman with a full time job, I volunteered, I was kind to EVERYONE, yet I felt I wasn't good enough. I wasn't good enough because I wasn't following God's plan for me. Marriage, children, temple, church attendance, tithing, and guilt.

This is so unfair.

Looking back at the people who shaped my religious experiences, I find myself wondering where they are now. I know my Mom is out of the church, and that she is happy. I know my brothers are okay and not really subscribing to any particular belief system, my cousins are somewhat believers but not active, and the rest of my relatives are pretty much the same as they were when I was a kid. Mostly on my Dad's side of the family. Very, very, very Mormon.

This is an example of Mormon videos meant to teach members of the church how to introduce their children to the doctrine and help them develop their own testimonies:



This is a perfect example of how over-produced and fake religious videos can be. The lack of sincerity, lets face it... not everyone is an actor... The cheesy music, the young boy sitting in the back of the car sad because he wasn't sure if he had a testimony, the father getting a serious look on his face as he comes to terms with the fact that his son is questioning the church and his lack of a testimony, the mother sitting there... silent... letting the penishood holder do all the talking. She is, after all, just a woman.

Then things get serious. Mom looks at Dad again, gives him an encouraging, adoring smile, and keeps her mouth shut. Dad shuts off the radio, because this is serious... we are talking about Mormon testimonies here...

Then Dad starts reminding his son about the warm fuzzies. How they are proof that God listens to our prayers. They aren't just "feelings." They are special feelings. Put there by the Holy Ghost! Then, 2:14 into the video, the actress playing the mother finally gets a line!

Mom: Remember the other day when we were reading the Book of Mormon and you wanted to keep reading? Why didn't you want to stop? Son: I got this tingly feeling inside... that's the Holy Ghost? Dad: That's right son! That's how a testimony FEELS.

Um... sorry. Don't buy it. Nope. No little kid is going to sit down with his parents, read the Book of Mormon and enjoy it to the point that they don't want to stop. They would jump off the couch, run to the door and say, "Gonna go to Jack's house! Toodles!"

This video was made to tear at the emotions of Mormon parents. Making them connect with this man's parents who are probably long dead. That is another way the church tries to keep people in the fold. Reminding them of the sacrifices their ancestors made when they came across the plains to Utah for the church, the fact that they suffered for their faith, how many of them died and how hard it was. This was used on me countless times by MANY people. My ancestors came from Sweden, by boat, only to discover the saints had left for Utah. They were tired, hungry, and they had very little... but they made the decision to keep going and join the Saints in Utah.

I was told that if I left the church, I would be pretty much slapping them in the face and telling them that their sacrifices meant nothing to me. That I was telling them I didn't want to be with them for eternity.

Now look at this man's parents, how they helped him when he was a child realize that he had a testimony, and had they not helped him, where would he be?

Of course, any faithful Mormon thinks that nothing good happens to people who leave the church. Where would he be? Probably addicted to meth, in prison for rape and murder, and *gasp* drinking coffee on a regular basis.

Brainwashing puts irrational fears in your mind, consequences you will face if you don't do what the group wants you to do. It's actually quite scary how often they do this... and how MANY of them do it.

This next video is something I have shared before, but she says what I think so well that I want to share it again. She really takes the words out of my mouth:



I always had a problem with what she was describing, and I, too, never got up to share my testimony with the congregation on fast Sunday.

The paragraph repeated over and over to these young kids, and then they are encouraged to repeat it to everyone else, is a form of brainwashing. Let's also remember that everyone also fasts on this day, making the brain a little more easy to be manipulated. A child sits there, with their family, listens to the people they know and trust promise the church is true with tears in their eyes, and they believe them. Why shouldn't they? These are the people that love and take care of them.

It's sick. It's wrong. I hope it stops one day. I really do!

Andee

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I had a dream last night that I was walking around temple square in Salt Lake City with my Dad (who passed away from cancer in 1998). Dad wasn't religious at all, and that is what made the whole dream even weirder... I guess it was just one of those things. I have always had dreams with my loved ones who have passed away.

A couple years ago, if I had this same dream, I would be jumping up and down because my Dad came to visit me in a dream. I used to think that they were really reaching out to me and trying to communicate with me or give me a message. Now? Not so much.

Church dreams usually piss me off. Probably because I never remember the whole dream and I start obsessing about what happened. This leads to more thinking about the church, it's doctrines and how much it really fucked with my head.

Sometimes I feel like I have been able to put the church thing behind me, other times I get just as angry as I did when I found out the truth for the first time. Is it something I can get over? Maybe. I think it would be easier if my family members didn't assume the worst of me all the time, dropping not-so-subtle hints about going to church or saying a prayer, giving me the evil eye every time they see a coffee mug in my hand... you get the idea.

When I started learning the truth, I was really mad. I was mad that I was lied to. I wanted to drive to Salt Lake City and demand answers from the men in white shirts. I wanted to scream from the balcony of a hotel...

"They are lying!!! Lying!!"


Of course that would have been counterproductive and I would have ended up in jail :) So, I started WindySydney instead, starting out as an anonymous person questioning Mormonism in the heart of LDS Country. I am glad I did. It's great therapy.

The truth.

The church taught me to tell the truth since the time I was a sunbeam. Tell the truth, kiddos! God is always watching you. The Deity won't hesitate to put down marks on your permanent record! Lies only get bigger and bigger until they explode and ruin your life!

Why can't they take their own advice?

Why is it that they are not completely truthful to the members of their church? To the people who are considering getting baptized?


Oh, I know... there are many Mormons who will claim they know everything about church history and they still "know" the church is true. They claim that the lack of information or lack of complete information isn't important at all, and that we shouldn't worry about it. Seth, the Mormon commenter I finally started ignoring due to his arrogance and condescending attitude, would always make these points.

If it's not important, then why bother hiding it? Why go out of your way to tell the people in the church that they can't trust information from anyone else? Why edit the Book of Mormon and change things? Why don't they discuss certain aspects of church history and really get into the heart of the matter?

My Mom and I were talking a long time ago, and she told me she wanted nothing more than to go to Relief Society and have a lengthy conversation about polygamy, both in this life and the afterlife. That would never happen, though. It's not talked about because they would rather not talk about it and live in denial.

People are afraid of the truth.

How is it that certain people automatically get believed when they spout off nonsense? Pat Robertson is a good example, Thomas S. Monson is another. Regardless of what these two people say or do (among others) their followers will believe them. No questions asked. None.

Anyone who sets him or herself up as God's infallible wing-man on earth should be looked at from every angle. Instead, the sheeple nod their heads, say their prayers and thank their God that they belong to the right church.

What has Thomas S. Monson done to prove he is a prophet? What kind of prophecy has he given that has come true? Has he ever made comments about meeting with Jesus and God in the temple? Having conversations with them about things? Has he ever even attempted to show the people on earth that he really is a prophet?


I think it comes down to one very important decision everyone has to make at one point or another...

Do I want to go along with the flow, or do I want to find the truth about things?

Is the truth more important than the warm fuzzies?

Is the truth worth alienating friends and family members?

Is the truth worth the constant comments and aggravation from members of the church who are convinced I am being misled?

The answer to those questions is a big, fat YES.

I want to know things, to understand them, to embrace what we have in the moment. I don't want to cross my fingers that I choose the right religion, waste time in hundreds of meetings, pray to a God that will ignore you, give up 10% of my money, or belong to a corporation that doesn't think twice about trying to limit the rights of people who are different than they are.


It wasn't easy to learn the truth and have to make big decisions about who I should tell or shouldn't tell. I knew first hand what the church tells members about apostates. I knew what I was up against... and until Mormons go through that themselves they have no idea just how huge and life-changing that can be.

The church was a part of my very existence. It was something I thought about constantly. It's hard to walk away from the normalcy, the comfortable bubble.

I still find myself humming church hymns. I will be walking over to my Mom's house and I will find myself singing Nearer My God to Thee, Choose the Right, Teach Me To Walk in the Light, Count Your Blessings, and I am a Child of God. Those melodies will be in my head forever... and they are catchy, too. Especially after singing them every Sunday (sometimes more) in a boring, slow paced, nearly monotone, funeral death march beat.

So, I have a question for you guys...

Why is it that certain topics are taboo? Not discussed? Why doesn't the church address these things head-on instead of pretending they are not there?

Why are there historically incorrect pictures shown to members of the church that conveniently leave out things like seer stones?

Why doesn't the church recognize that the Book of Abraham isn't even close to being what Joseph Smith said it was?

Why do they tell the members of the church that they shouldn't go on the internet for information about church history and instead only trust info that comes directly from the men in white shirts?

I think I will always be angry about this. Not because I have a dark, Godless heart... but because I went through so much guilt and drama. My anger isn't directed at the members of the church, it's directed to the leaders who have the information at their fingertips and continue to make excuses for the actions of prior leaders.

If you aren't angry, you aren't paying attention.

It's not even close to being a moral thing to do... picking and choosing what information to give. It's so underhanded and sly that it makes me shake my head in disgust.

How do they get away with it?

Shouldn't people all over the world hold religious organizations accountable for the outright lies they tell on a daily basis? Why aren't there more people willing to stand up and demand answers from these people?

I do take comfort in knowing that there are more and more people coming to their senses about Mormonism. That goes for other religions as well. The age of information is upon us, and those who take advantage of the wealth of information learn and grow. Atheism is getting more and more common, and while I don't really care what people believe (as long as they don't make me live by their religious rules: UTAH) I think it's good that people are looking at things in a logical and careful manner.

Blind faith gets you nowhere. You just spin your wheels, devoting time and energy to a belief system that just isn't right. You feel guilt for normal things, you give money to an already wealthy church, and you beat yourself up for not being who the "Lord" wants you to be.

I love truth.

Andee

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Time for another trip into the WindySydney mail bag!

A man by the username Grandpa Heston left me a couple comments that I want to reply to. Grandpa Heston's comments will be in quote blocks and italicized and my responses will be in bold letters to help keep things easier to read/understand.

Lets get started...

Your comments are interesting to me. Being obedient means that we subject our will to the Father in Heaven. No one should blindly follow the prophet or anyone else in the flesh. As for me I pray (as you said the only way that you would be obedient is if God told you himself)for an answer from God. He either confirms to me or not that what is said by anyone is from Him. So far the score is: 100% right for the prophets teaching me. For others that I trust enough to pray about the record is less favorable. YOu ought to try it with a sincere heart and see what you find.

Your comments are interesting to me, as well. I am especially interested in the comment you made about being obedient to our father in heaven and not blindly follow the prophet. First of all, there is zero proof there is a father in heaven, a space-daddy, a super fantastic club we get to hang out in after we die.

Who is it you want me to be obedient to? Because here is the thing... all scriptures are man made. The bible says shellfish is an abomination, sell your daughters into slavery... the list is endless. Should I be obedient to that God? Why or why not?

Have you ever played the telephone game? Someone whispers something in a friends ear and they keep passing the same message around the room? This is kind of how I see the bible and other religious texts. These are not God's words. These are words that men claim are God's words. So, if I am to be obedient to the God of the bible, I need to do some of these things:

-Abandon boys who are uncircumcised. Genesis 17:14

-Incest is best. Moses was the product of an incestuous marriage. Exodus 6:20

-God says it's okay for slave owners to split up slave families. Exodus 21:4

-If you "entice" an "unmarried maid" to "lie" with you, then you must marry her, unless the father refuses to give her to you, in which case you must pay him the going price for virgins. Exodus 21:16-17

-God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Believe me when I say I could go on and on. I have before. Many times. I need to obey a God that would do those horrific things? Interesting. Sorry, can't do it.

If there is a God, and He wants me to be obedient to him, then He needs to make his presence known. Mormons believe the prophets are communicating with God, and therefore they have more answers to things than other regular church members. The only way I would know what God wants from me is to what? Read scriptures that can't be trusted completely, and ...listen to and obey the prophet.

I didn't necessarily appreciate the Brigham quote. He had a great many things that he said. This is one small one that detractors use. How about quoting the rest that read a more favorably?

Oh, what quotes would thou like me to share?

There are great things?

Really?

How about his teachings that Adam was God, that there were Quaker-like men living on the moon, that anyone bearing children with someone with dark skin should be put to death immediately to save his soul?

Brigham Young had an ego the size of Texas, and by reading my copy of the Journal of Discourses I learned a lot about him. He treated women like property, he took anything he wanted, and he would publicly chastise people who openly challenged anything he said or did.

Next time I will check with you before quoting something a pretend prophet said as to not upset you. I am oh, so sorry.

Do you really think a true prophet would do the things he did?

Don't you think that if Brigham was really speaking and communicating with the Lord that God wouldn't have a few things to say about his sermons that the church now pretends don't exist? How about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? That was God's will?

Love you. Enjoy your coffee. I prayed about that too. Prophets were right. Coffee Bad! All it does is give you headaches when you don't have it and a lot of other little maladies like bad belly, the jitters etc. etc. Prayer is the soul's sincere desire. You enter Heaven through prayer.

Oh, I love the coffee dig.

Yes, I stopped going to church because I wanted to drink coffee.

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments ever proposed to me on this blog, and I have had some doozies.

You love me? Want to get married and have babies? I can cook. Only vegetarian, though... and I would like to get to know you a little better before agree to return to the church as one of your many polygamous wives that are promised to you in the afterlife. The Celestial Kingdom always sounded kind of moronic to me, as if women would be jumping at the chance to share a husband with other women and populate their own worlds with spirit children they had to carry. Sounds like hell, not heaven.

Your comment makes you seem arrogant and sarcastic. Very bad way to get people to listen to the points you are trying to make.

If prayer is the soul's sincere desire, then lets take a look at that...



How do you know anyone hears your prayers? How about instead of praying to your heavenly father for a week, you pray to a can of Spam:



The results would be the same. They would.

I forgot. I always ask this of those that have left the church. Why do you never comment on the things that you know that the church (its people) and their leaders do right? If you are truly the free thinker that you purport you are, why not put the good things that you left to balance out some of the junk that you feel is so wrong? But alas. that would require you to be honest wouldn't it?

There are many ex-Mormons reading this last paragraph, and I can garruntee that they are laughing as hard as I am.

What should I praise the church for?

I should praise the church because they go out of their way to limit the equal rights of fellow human beings who don't even belong to their church?

I should praise the church for not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood until they were forced to change that rule to keep their tax-exempt status?

I should praise the church for not giving equal rights to women?

I should praise the church for telling women that they needed to be in polygamous marriages in order to reach the celestial kingdom?

I should praise them for their dishonesty?

I should praise the church who spends millions and millions of dollars on temples, church buildings, and expensive high-rise condo complexes instead of putting that money to use in a more helpful way... like feeding the hungry... that sort of thing.

I should praise the church for not being honest to me when they taught me the stories about church history? The translation of the Book of Mormon is my favorite example...

I should praise them for these things?

I know that most of the people in the church are good people, and if you had taken any time whatsoever to read more than one article on this blog you would know that. My entire family is Mormon. I love them no matter what, even if they act like you and assume I left because I crave Starbucks.

What you don't seem to understand is that my points and concerns with the church are valid.

As for the last sentence you wrote, you are implying that I am being dishonest. If you want to make that claim, please be prepared to show evidence to prove I am lying or being dishonest in any way.

I take that for what it is, a dig, a jab, an internet "F-you!"

What you have done is use every single apologist tactic out there. Trivializing my concerns, claiming I am dishonest, and being an all-around jerk. If you want to really communicate with people honestly about their concerns over your church, try being a little more kind and understanding. You sure came off as a egotistical jerk who thinks he knows everything.

If I had a dollar for every time some jerk-wad called me a liar without offering any kind of example or evidence I would be living in my dream home, attending college full time, traveling the world, and donating to charities that show where their money goes. I would be wealthy beyond imagination, almost as wealthy as the Mormon church!

If you had read more than one lonely article on this blog, you would know that my concerns are not just with the Mormon Church. That just happens to be the religion I was born into. I believe all religion is more negative than positive. Look at what it has done to you!! I am sure that without religion you wouldn't be so quick to judge others.

If you excuse me, I have to go to the store and stock up on coffee beans.

Andee

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By Laura Crimaldi and Laurel J. Sweet

Taunton Mayor Charles Crowley called School Superintendent Julie Hackett from his vacation today and asked her to apologize both privately and publicly to the family of an 8-year-old special needs student sent home from school and ordered to undergo psychological testing after drawing a stick-figure picture of Jesus Christ nailed to the cross.

“Mayor Crowley’s sentiments were that he would hope Dr. Hackett would meet with the family today, apologize, make a public apology on behalf of the school department, pay for the psychiatrist and come up with a policy to make sure this never happens in our school system again,” said Crowley’s assistant Todd Castro.

...

The Lowell M. Maxham Elementary School second-grader was booted from the school on Dec. 2 when school officials feared his artwork - drawn to depict what he did on his Thanksgiving break - might be exposing violent tendencies. The child was allowed to return on Dec. 7 after a two-day risk assessment by psychiatrist Helene Titelbaum determined there was nothing wrong with him.

“(The boy) does not appear to be a threat to himself or others at this time. Therefore, I recommend that he return to school as soon as possible,” Titelbaum concluded in her report, a copy of which was obtained by the Herald.

The boy’s father, Chester Johnson, 40, a part-time maintenance worker for the Taunton School Department, told the Herald his son drew Jesus after visiting the National Shrine of Our Lady of La Salette in Attelboro to see its Christmas display. He then put his own name on the cross instead of Jesus.

...

“My intention is to shed light on what is happening to children in schools because of zero tolerance,” she said. “I’m sure they expected Santa Claus or a reindeer, but that’s not where this child’s mind was.”

Johnson, she said, ”just wants to get his son out of the school. His son is really traumatized from this event.

“This is one of those ‘How is this possible?’ scenarios,” she said. “We live in a society where we’re supposed to honor children and their imagination.”

In June 2008, a Taunton fifth-grade student was suspended for a day for a stick figure drawing that appeared to depict him shooting his teacher and a classmate.

Okay, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that I have something to say about this...

This little boy was drawing a photo about what he did over the Thanksgiving holiday? I am guessing (and hoping) that his family didn't go out and crucify one of their atheist neighbors as a human sacrifice to Jesus. This is clearly someone freaking out over something silly. The kid went to church, saw Jesus on the cross at some point, and then drew the damn picture. I don't see how it got to the point that he was removed from the school and asked to have a mental evaluation.

The school handled this poorly, to say the least.

Now, onto the bigger issue.

Religion and kids.

Is it fair to raise your child telling them that they already belong to the right religion and that everyone else is wrong?

Do kids really need to walk into a church and see a statue of a man being crucified? It's kind of sadistic if you ask me. Something I wouldn't really want young kids to see...

If a Catholic took their son to a movie where there was a bloody violent scene of a man being killed and left to die while people were cheering and chanting, they would be upset that their child was subjected to that. Wouldn't they? Yet they don't see the same thing in their churches. I am not trying to pick on Catholics, I think all religions are crap.

This is a big issue to me, because if there was one thing I hated about being a Mormon, it was when the mothers would escort their three, four or five year olds to the microphone on fast Sunday and whisper into their ears what to say.

Ever really listen to the words people say? It's the same thing. Verbatim.

I would like to bear my testimony and I know this church is true. I love my mother and father and my sisters and brothers. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that Thomas Monson is our living prophet today. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

These are little kids. They don't know what a testimony is. They don't understand the concept of God, heaven, hell and all the severe punishments for not doing what the church tells them. They can't read the Book of Mormon to know that it's true. They are only doing what they are told to do, instructed to do.

It's really unfair to do this to kids. It limits them and closes them off to other possibilities. If their religion is all they know, do they really have the chance to make their own religious choices?

When I was a kid, everyone in my life told me Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Book of Mormon was true, and that I must have been a wonderful spirit in the pre-existance because I was lucky enough to be born into the one true church. When I made friends with people in other religions as a child, I was sad that they wouldn't be going to heaven like I was. Isn't that sad? Should little kids have to worry and think about stuff like that?

I just wish religion was something you could pick up when you become a certain age (if you want to). Kind of like cigarettes. If you are old enough to smoke and make an unhealthy decision for your body, you are old enough to go into a religion and make an unhealthy decision for your mental and emotional well being.

Most of the people born into a religion stay there for the rest of their lives. It's pretty rare for people to convert from one religion to another. It's even more rare for someone to do it and not have it be because they want to marry a person of another faith.

Yeah, the school failed here. The little boy didn't do anything wrong. I just think it's a sad display when kids are filled with religion so early... before they can really grasp what people are talking about.

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Seth and I have been debating the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith recently, and this is my reply to his latest thoughts on the matter. As always, Seth's quotes will be in quotes and italicized and quotes from other sources will be in quotes and bolded. Hope that helps everyone out figuring out who said what. I will jump in when I feel like it.

OK, I finally got a bit of free time, so time to get off my butt and get moving on this.

Before I start in on the substance of the court proceedings, I think the quote from Hugh Nibley needs to be addressed, since it kind of frames this whole issue and clarifies what exactly is at stake here. Here's the quote as you are using it in your post:

"if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith." Hugh Nibley, "The Myth Makers" pg. 246.

Andee, when I first heard this quote from Nibley, it left me scratching my head for a couple reasons.

First, because it seemed so incongruous with other stuff I had read from Hugh Nibley on Joseph Smith.

It just seemed obvious to me that Nibley's testimony of Joseph Smith was a bit deeper than the result of a single court case. His case for Joseph seemed to be built on so much more. For him to state that it would all be nullified by a single court case seemed extremely careless to me.

Secondly, it made no logical sense.

Why would a single court case have the ability to nullify all of Joseph Smith's prophetic claims? Why would the truth of Joseph's message be dependent on a backwoods New York judge? Even if Joseph Smith was guilty, it seemed obvious to me that this would not be remotely sufficient to discredit him as a prophet.

So why would Nibley, in essence, admit that a single conviction would be the "most damning" piece of evidence against Joseph Smith when it clearly couldn't be of such importance?

Seth, I don't really think it matters what Nibley said. His thoughts/opinions on the matter don't change the historical evidence or fact that Joseph Smith was indeed charged and found guilty of fraud using the exact same seer stone he used to "translate" the Book of Mormon. The quote was pretty much an afterthought to my original post. It's not going to change anything.

The reason this is important, as I have mentioned before, is because it shows he wasn't the honorable man the church likes to paint him to be.

Also, I find it funny that you don't think this is "logical" when you are so willing to place belief in things that are a HELL of a lot less logical than this! Look at the seer stone alone! Is that logical? Is anything about the Book of Mormon or the stories in it "logical?" Is it logical that God would choose a man who was convicted of fraud to restore a church on earth?

No.

Far from it.

If God existed, he would be smarter than that. At least... I hope so.

Well, as it so happens, Nibley didn't claim that.

The book that provides the limited quote that you used above Andee is, as we've seen in so many anti-Mormon works, yet another example of a critic deliberately taking a small portion of a quote out of context and in isolation to make someone say something they weren't actually claiming.

Here is the actual FULL quote from Hugh Nibley:

"You knew its immense value as a weapon against Joseph Smith if its authenticity could be established. And the only way to establish authenticity was to get hold of the record book from which the pages had been purportedly torn. After all, you had only Miss Pearsall's word for it that the book ever existed. Why didn't you immediately send he back to find the book or make every effort to get hold of I? Why didn't you "unearth" it, as they later said you did? . . . The authenticity of the record still rests entirely on the confidential testimony of Miss Pearsall to the Bishop. And who was Miss Pearsall? A zealous old maid, apparently: "a woman helper in our mission," who lived right in the Tuttle home and would do anything to assist her superior. The picture I get is that of a gossipy old housekeeper. If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith. Why, then, [speaking to Tuttle] was it not republished in your article in the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge after 1891? . . . in 1906 Bishop Tuttle published his Reminiscences of a Missionary Bishop in which he blasts the Mormons as hotly as ever. . . yet in the final summary of his life's experiences he never mentions the story of the court record - his one claim to immortal fame and the gratitude of the human race if it were true!"

(Nibley "The Myth Makers", 246)

When Nibley wrote his quotes he was under the impression that the court records would never be found. He was wrong. They were.

Joseph Smith was indeed found guilty of fraud by charging people money to find buried treasures on their farm land with his magical seer stone. Nibley's opinion on the matter doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith was guilty of fraud. Nibley simply didn't see it coming, and neither did the other church apologists. You can't argue with the proof. It happened.

Not only did it happen, the church now knows it and chooses to keep this from the members and investigators of the church. This is dishonest and fraudulent in the opinions of others. In order for someone to make a "logical" decision about what to put their faith in, they need to have all the facts. The church consistently keeps those facts out of reach of the faithful and promises them than anything negative about the church is coming directly from the devil. This is a LIE. A Lie lie lie. We are not talking about theories, we are talking about facts that be proven! Is this something a true church would do? Nope.

In the court record Joseph Smith confessed that "for three years" prior to 1826 he had used a magic stone placed in his hat to find treasures or lost property, placing his money-digging activities from 1823 to 1826. Mormon histories indicate that a heavenly messenger revealed the presence of gold plates on September 21, 1823. Joseph Smith was conning overly optimistic treasure seekers out of their money at the very time he claimed that an angel revealed to him that gold plates lay buried near his home. He continued these deceptive practices for at least three of the four years after God was supposedly preparing him to receive the gold plates. These facts undermine the credibility of Mormonism's first prophet and founder. (Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, Signature Books, 2004, pp. 80-86)

Do you understand that at the very time he was supposedly chosen by God to restore his church he was in the middle of conning people out of their money? Is that something a true prophet would even consider? Wouldn't that piss God off?

It would.

God wouldn't have chosen a con man and a liar to be a prophet because he wasn't trustworthy.

I also find it telling that the church isn't honest to it's members and investigators about this particular event. They don't talk about it and pretend it never happened so people don't start thinking. In Mormonism (as well as other religions), thinking is bad. Once you start being logical and using your common sense you see all the little signs and evidences that it's a bunch of hogwash.

I know that's a long quote, but you need to read it carefully.

What Nibley is doing here is basically taunting Episcopalian Bishop Daniel S. Tuttle for not actually using the trial record that he had. He was questioning why he would do that if it was so important.

Basically, his statement about it being "damning" was merely said in a mocking tone, and referred only to the specific argument Tuttle was trying to make. Basically, this isn't even close to an admission by Nibley that a conviction would be sufficient to discredit Joseph Smith.

All it is, is an apologist having some fun at the expense of an anti-Mormon writer who had not yet produced the documents he was boasting of.

So let me be clear here Andee. The result of this limited debate topic does not prove anything about Joseph Smith one way or the other.

Wrong.

It proves that Joseph Smith was guilty of being a fraud. That shows the true character of the man who was caught in more lies and half-truths than most Mormons even dream about.

The charge that Joseph was known to hunt treasure with 'peep' or 'seer' stones, etc., was serious enough that Mormon scholar Francis W. Kirkham stated that if the court record could be found, it would show that the Mormon Church was false: "'Careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence . . . "'If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church.' "Later, in the same book, Mr. Kirkham states: "'. . . [I]f a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose Church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him. . . . How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been superstitious fraud which the pages from a book declared he confessed to be? . . . ' "Well, in spite of 140 years of silence, the records did surface. Rev. Wesley Walters discovered the documents in the basement of the Chenango County, New York, jailhouse at Norwich, N.Y. in 1971. The records, affidavits, and other data show conclusively that Joseph Smith was arrested, went to trial, was found guilty as an imposter in the Stowell matter of "glass-looking." It is not a matter of debate, opinion or religious preference. It is a proven historical fact.

"Initially Mormons denied that Joseph ever participated in 'money-digging' activities, saying that would invalidate his claim as a prophet. Now that indisputable evidence confirms that Joseph was a convicted 'money- digger' Mormons have taken a 'so what' attitude. At least one says, now that the evidence proves that Joseph was a 'money-digger' that it really doesn’t matter. (What could a BYU professor say?) Mormon scholar Marvin Hill says:

"'There may be little doubt now, as I have indicated elsewhere, that Joseph Smith was brought to trial in 1826 on a charge, not exactly clear, associated with money digging.' [Fawn] Brodie’s thesis that the prophet grew from necromancer to prophet assumes that the two were mutually exclusive, that if Smith were a money-digger he could not have been religiously sincere.

'This does not necessarily follow. Many believers active in their churches, were money-diggers in New England and western New York in this period. Few contemporaries regard these money-diggers as irreligious, only implying so if their religious views seemed too radical . . . For the historian interested in Joseph Smith the man, it does not seem incongruous for him to have hunted for treasure with a seer stone and then to use with full faith to receive revelations from the Lord.'

So, if we are being "logical" we would note that God chose someone who is a convicted fraud to dig up golden plates and translate them with the same seer stone he used to break the law? Quite a leap if you ask me. Not very logical at all.

In fact, Joseph could have been totally making up his spiritual gifts with Josiah Stowell, and still have had a turnaround in his life such that his work on the Book of Mormon was 100% bona fide.

Not that I'm claiming that you are putting all your eggs in this one basket.

You have a lot of reasons for rejecting the LDS Church, this being only one of them.

I'm certain that even if you have to admit that I'm right at the end of this debate topic, it will not have too huge of an impact on your overall conviction of Mormonism being false.

Just realize that the same is true for me. Losing this particular debate won't change much in my mind either about the overall claims of Mormonism.

One final housekeeping issue.

I would ask that we keep the Nauvoo Expositor and any other specific incidents you think invalidate Joseph's overall character out of this limited debate. We are here to discuss his seerstone activities and that alone. I can go back to your earlier post and leave something on the Expositor later. With that out of the way, on to the rest of the article.

So, are you admitting that you were wrong and that Joseph Smith was indeed found guilty of fraud? It seemed in our last conversation you didn't believe he was proven to be found guilty and that there was no evidence whatsoever of this.

We agree then, that he was found guilty of fraud?

Why do you want to keep the Nauvoo Expositor and any other specific incidents out of it? I don't understand the reason you would like to do that? Those are more examples of Joseph Smith lying, conning and manipulating people into doing things they normally wouldn't do.

He *could* have had a turn-around, but due to the historical evidence that Joseph was caught in one lie after another I would have to say that isn't likely. At all. As a matter of fact, it is my belief that the church started as an afterthought. I believe Joseph wanted to create the Book of Mormon and the magical story behind it because he wanted to sell the copyright and make money. It was only after he realized that his status as a "prophet" could gain him money, power and any woman he could get his hands on that he went further with the con.


I don't think this is about the seer stone abilities alone. It is my opinion that this debate is about Joseph's trustworthiness. Why he shouldn't be trusted as he is. Why people should know the entire story about the church instead of what the leaders of the church choose to tell them.

Even more evidence that the whole thing is a con is how the Book of Mormon itself is plagiarized and full of historical inaccuracies. Steel? Chariots? Barley? They didn't exist in America at the time the Book of Mormon supposedly took place. This means nothing to you? Why not?

I have a question for you...

When you learned of the way the Book of Mormon was translated (by seer stone) were you surprised? Were you taught that when you were first learning about the church from your local leaders and church texts? Were you shown paintings and drawings of how things REALLY happened? I am willing to say no. You were not. Why is that? Why is it that they are so afraid to be honest about the truth? Because they know people will come to their senses. That's why.

I don't understand how you can put your trust in a man who was found to be lying so many times?

If you bought a used car from someone and it turned out to be a piece of crap, would you go back to him and buy another car? Would you take their word for it that the engine was rebuilt, the car was being maintained and only driven by an old lady on Sundays to church? Would you trust the company that owned the car lot and employed the salesman when they told you to ignore the things other people say about them because they are all lies?

This isn't much different than that.

You are putting your trust into Joseph Smith and the corporation that wants you to keep trusting him. "Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. Read what we tell you to read, believe what we tell you to believe, and give us 10% of your money."



Again, if we are being "logical" about this we would look at the evidence and see it for what it is. Another fraud by Joseph Smith.

The Bible (which I believe to be another work of fiction, but for the sake of argument) says this is how you can determine a true prophet:

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. -Deuteronomy 18:22

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. -Deuteronomy 13:1-3

Lets take a look at some of the prophecies Joseph gave to determine if he was a true prophet:

1. The Lamanites would be converted and their skin would become "white and delightsome." This was of course changed later to a more politically correct statement of "pure and delightsome." Was the original translation wrong or was the church pressured to change things to make themselves look more accepting to blacks? Doesn't change the fact that the prophecy is 100% wrong. The color of one's skin doesn't change in relation to the church they belong to or the beliefs they hold. This is bullshit. Racist bullshit. Plain and simple.

2. The copyright of the Book of Mormon was to be sold in Toronto, Canada. Joseph Smith sent Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Toronto, Canada, to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in response to the following revelation that he claimed to have received from God through his “seer stone.” Looks like the seer stone was once again not working as it should have been. Maybe Joseph just wanted to marry their wives while they were away, huh? He's a prince like that.

3. New York, Albany and Boston would be destroyed if they didn't accept the Mormon gospel. Section 84:114 –115, Doctrine & Covenants, “Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832”:


4. Saints who kept the word of wisdom were promised health, strength, wisdom and knowledge. The fact is, many Mormons who obey the Word of Wisdom to the letter have ill health and the destroying angel does not pass them by. Mormons die like any other people-group. We think of the many Mormons in and around Saint George, Utah, who died of the effects of the radioactive fallout from the nuclear tests in Nevada. Why didn’t the destroying angel pass them by?

5. Christ was to return by Feb. 14, 1891.

History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 182, February 14, 1835:

“President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by visions and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings: and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.”

Jesus Christ should have returned by February 14, 1891.

6. The failure of Joseph Smith's anti-bank:

“On the 2nd of November the brethren at Kirtland drew up certain articles of agreement, preparatory to the organization of a banking institution, to be called the ‘Kirtland Safety Society.’ ” History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 467, November 2, 1836

When the articles of agreement were adopted, this institution was officially named the “Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company.” Ibid. p. 471, January 2, 1837

Joseph Smith stated, “It is wisdom and according to the mind of the Holy Spirit, that you should call at Kirtland [Ohio], and receive counsel and instruction upon those principles that are necessary to further the great work of the Lord, and to establish the children of the kingdom, according to the oracles of God; as they are had among us: and further, we invite the brethren from abroad, to call on us, and take stock in our Safety Society; and we would remind them also of the sayings of Isaiah, contained in the 60th chapter and more particularly the 9th and 17th verses,…Also 62nd chapter, 1st verse…” Ibid. p.473.

Warren Parrish, cashier at the bank and a confidant of Joseph Smith stated, “I have listened to [Joseph Smith] with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the audible voice of God, instructed him to establish a banking-anti banking institution, who like Aaron’s rod shall swallow up all other banks (the Bank of Monroe excepted,) and grow and flourish, and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins.” Plainsville Republican, February 22, 1838, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, p. 297, by LDS writer Max Parkin.

The anti-bank officially failed in the summer of 1837. Joseph Smith recorded, “…I resigned my office in the ‘Kirtland Safety Society,’ disposed of my interest therein, and withdrew from the institution; being fully aware, after so long an experiment, that no institution of the kind, established upon just and righteous principles for a blessing not only to the Church but the whole nation, would be suffered to continue its operations in such an age of darkness, speculation and wickedness.” History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 497, July 7, 1837.

7. The inhabitants of the moon and the sun: Oliver B. Huntington Journal, 1837, Book 14. Original at Huntington Library, San Marino, California. Also found in The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’ Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264.

“Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; comeing (sic) generally, near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could “See” whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

“As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do, that they live generally to near the age of a 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style....”

The evidence is conclusive that Joseph Smith said it. Brigham Young confirmed it on July 24, 1870:

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271).

On July 20, 1969 man set foot on the moon, and there was no trace of any beings ever having been there before.

These are just 7 of the 50 prophicies Joseph Smith gave that were 100% false. How can you believe a prophet of God could be wrong so many times?

Joseph Smith wasn't trustworthy, and neither is the church that continues to cover up all of the wrong things he did during his life. This goes for many other prophets and church leaders as well.

You are more than correct by stating that this is just one of hundreds of reasons the Mormon Church isn't true in my eyes. I would love to debate them all with you if you are up to it.

How about the next topic being about discrimination? Blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, homosexuality and proposition 8. Are you up for it? Why would God (again, not that there is one) want the people in his one true church to be so ugly and disrespectful to certain groups of people? Why would he do something so wrong? Is it because God is an asshole? Is it because God is a racist, sexist and homophobic?

Till next time...

Andee

P.S. I will fix the word limit in my comments for ya. Didn't even think about that!

P.P.S. I can't figure out how to do that. I have been looking at the settings on the blog for a while now and I can't seem to find the option. I might not be able to change the word limit :( Bummer.

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Seth, a believing Mormon who visits WindySydney agreed to let me share this on the blog in the form of an article. I think this is good because it opens the lines of communication and lets people get a different perspective on things...

There are many believing Mormons who read my blog but don't leave comments as Seth does. They usually send me email because they don't want to be "caught" on an "Anti-Mormon" blog. I hate that people feel they have to hide their online activities or keep things from their family just because it's an opposing point of view. As a matter of fact, seeking out the opposite point of view should be a good thing. If you close yourself off to new things and ideas you get stuck and you stop growing and learning. Any religion that tells you what you should and shouldn't read isn't good for you. I wish more Mormons would realize that.

Anyway, back on topic.

Seth and I were debating on my post about lying for the lord. I asked Seth to reply to just a couple of the list of over 100 proven lies the church has told over the years. This is his reply and as usual I will jump in when I feel the need... To help keep things straight, Seth's words are quoted and italicized, and other quotes will not be italicized. Hope that helps.

Very well, here goes.

"He was found guilty of glass looking. The modern term for Smith would be a con artist."

Joseph Smith was arraigned, but there is no record of a court conviction. Previous records of court hearings have been supplemented by new documents allowing a better legal analysis. There just isn't any firm ground to argue a conviction ever happened. You can read more about it here:

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826trial/facts.html

You see, Seth... I have quotes stating the exact opposite.

I do believe that your apologist sources don't want to admit the damning proof of Joseph Smith's conviction of fraud. If you were to look at non-Mormon sources you might find something like this...

Joseph Smith was indeed convicted when he was brought up on charges of money digging or glass looking. This is a quote of a report by Alan Butler who wrote an article for AC:

By 1826 Joseph Smith had developed a reputation as a glass looker (also known as a money digger). Smith used a seer stone rather than a piece of glass. He would place the seer stone into a stovepipe hat which he would then cover with his face. By peering at the stone while in the hat he could see things which were far removed from him, even buried under the ground.

Early in 1826 a man by the name of Josiah Stowell had come to Smith to hire him for his money digging abilities. Stowell believed that there was a treasure buried on his land, left by Spaniards long ago. With Smith's great powers Stowell would be able to find the great Spanish treasure.

For a month Smith worked on the Stowell farm, but nothing was ever found. Stowell himself never doubted Smith's abilities, but many of those close to Stowell felt the old man was being taken for a ride by Smith and brought him up on charges.

Arad Stowell, Josiah's son, testified that he had personally tested Joseph Smith's abilities and saw clearly that it was nothing but a con job. With his testimony and that of two other men involved with Josiah Stowell, Joseph Smith was found guilty of disturbing the peace.

To those who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints this episode in the life of their founder and first prophet has been a very embarrassing one that they have fought very hard to deny. The danger lies not just in the fact that Smith was a convicted con man prior to his creation of the Church, but that the details of his confidence trickery are so similar to those of the story of Joseph Smith finding and translating the golden plates which would become the Book of Mormon.

This is something Steve Benson (grandson of a former prophet and well-known ex-Mormon) wrote about Joseph Smith's conviction:

Let the record show that Joseph Smith was indeed officially (and criminally) convicted of fraud by a New York court--during the time, no less, that he claimed to be receiving inspired instructions pertaining to the translation of supposedly divinely-unearthed gold plates which he said he had dug up during an angel-led scavenger hunt.

....

In 1961, Nibley authored a book entitled "The Myth Makers," in which he ventured to boldly debunk assertions that Joseph Smith had committed, or had been arrested for, the crime of "glass-looking." Nibley (in words he probably later wished he could retract) went so far as to declare that if, in fact, Smith was actually proven guilty of such nefarious activity, it would constitute the most damning blow that could be imagined to Smith's claim of divine prophetship.

...

Under the sub-section, "Guilty! Next Case!," Hartshorn exposes the serious nature of the charges against Smith and how they have plunged a dagger into the heart of Smith's claims to divine guidance:

"It was charged that Joseph Smith was accused and found guilt of parting a local farmer from his money in a less than honest scheme, commonly known as 'money-digging' or 'glass-looking.' It was reported to have been an activity that brought him rebuke from his soon-to-be father-in-law, Isaac Hale. It is also historically recorded that he was removed from membership in a local Methodist church because of the activity and trial results.

....

"Of course, when that was first published back in 1961, Dr. Nibley undoubtedly felt that after 130 years no such record would turn up in 1971. Once again, the actual evidence, which the Mormon Church had denied ever existed came to light in 1971. You can read about how it was discovered as well as the relevance of other historical documents of that time that Joseph used a 'seer' stone to find money, etc. in the 54-page brochure 'Joseph Smith’s Bainbridge, N.Y., Court Trials.'

Mormon scholar Francis W. Kirkham stated:

"'Careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence . . .

"'If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church.'

he went on...

"'. . . [I]f a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose Church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him. . . . How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been superstitious fraud which the pages from a book declared he confessed to be? . . . '

....

"Well, in spite of 140 years of silence, the records did surface. Rev. Wesley Walters discovered the documents in the basement of the Chenango County, New York, jailhouse at Norwich, N.Y. in 1971. The records, affidavits, and other data show conclusively that Joseph Smith was arrested, went to trial, was found guilty as an imposter in the Stowell matter of "glass-looking." It is not a matter of debate, opinion or religious preference. It is a proven historical fact.

This is a type-written copy of the words found on the court records in question. All the words that have been crossed out are in fact crossed out on the handwritten record:

""People of the State of New York vs. Joseph Smith. Warrant issued upon written complaint upon the oath of Peter G. Bridgman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner was brought into before court March 20 (1826). Prisoner examined. Says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of the time since; … and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and informed him where he could find those these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them; … that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account its injuring his health, especially his eyes— made making them sore; …

""Josiah Stowel sworn. Says … that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did posses professed the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the digging part at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attelon, for a mine—did not exactly find it, but got a p*iece* of ore, which resembled gold, he thinks; that the prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; …

""Horace Stowel sworn. Says he sees prisoner look into hat through stone, pretending to tell where a chest of dollars were buried in Windsor, a number of miles distant; marked out size of chest in the leaves on ground.

""Arad Stowel sworn. Says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill that he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book open upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent; hold the stone to the candle, turn his back head to the book and read. The deception appeared so palpable, that witness went off disgusted.

""McMaster sworn. Says he went with Arad Stowel to be convinced of prisoner’s skill, and likewise came away disgusted, finding the deception so palpable. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discern discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; …

""Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look Yeomans for chest of money; … that Smith arrived at the spot first (was in night); … After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board of or plank. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed the last time that he looked, on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried came all fresh to his mind; that the last time that he looked, he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk; that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside of the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says … that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone and hat; …

""And thereupon therefore the Court find*s* the defendant guilty. Costs: Warrant, 19c. Complaint upon oath, 25 1/2c. Seven witnesses, 87 1/2c. Recognisances [sic], 25c. Mittimus, 19c. Recognisances [sic] of witnesses, 75c. Subpoena, 18c. – $2.68." "

We can go back and forth on this all the time, though.

It is clear to me and millions of other people that Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist, but to some there will never be enough evidence to make that connection. Not because the evidence isn't good enough, but because they won't allow themselves to admit that their beloved prophet was indeed a liar and a thief.

Seer activities were rather common in that part of the country early 1800s. Many people claimed to be seers. Some where actual cons cheating people out of money. Others actually sincerely believed themselves to be possessed of these spiritual gifts and did their best to act honorably with what they honestly believed they had.

Yes, seer activities were very common in that part of the country in the 1800s. I wont argue with that truth. As a matter of fact, it was one of Joseph Smith's teenage neighbors that showed him her seer stone before he went out to find one in the bottom of a well.

When you say, "Others actually sincerely believed themselves to be possessed of these spiritual gifts and did their best to act honorably with what they honestly believed they had." You are giving people too much credit.

It was clear to those that Joseph Smith conned that he wasn't a seer or a man with spiritual gifts. I do believe it was clear to Joseph Smith as well. This is why he was caught in so many lies during his lifetime. When he was caught doing something wrong he formed an excuse immediately. He was good at convincing people. From polygamy to seer stones to pressuring people to sign documents that they didn't 100% agree with... he wasn't an honorable man even though so many want to believe in their hearts he was.

Joseph Smith appears to have been of the latter kind. The role of diviners, seers and so forth was waning by the early 1800s as the Enlightenment took greater hold - even in rural backwaters like Joseph's neighborhood. But the "old ways" were by no means dead, and you could still find seers serving their communities in respected capacity. There were several cases of fraud, but Joseph doesn't seem to fit with them. Dan Vogel writes:

"A typical confidence scheme in Smith's time involved a transient who entered an area that was known for its tales of lost treasures and the charlatan's magical powers could be put to good advantage. Using a a "peep" stone or mineral rod, he would lead the credulous to a remote spot where he had previously deposited a few coins and was able to impress them by "finding" the coins. In the ensuing excitement, he would ask to be paid for his services or, more boldly, suggest that a company be established and that shares be sold. Thereupon, he would disappear with the money. On the other hand, he might string the people along by leading them to subsequent spots, then offer magical explanations for the failure to locate or secure the treasure. For instance, he might tell them that the treasure was protected by an evil spirit or that they had not precisely followed the magical formula he had given them. Eventually he would suggest that the undertaking be abandoned, whereupon he would slip out of town with the money."

Dan Vogel, "Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet", xiv.

That is really quite typical of some of the stories I have read about Joseph Smith and his seer stone con jobs. I read that he would tell a farmer that they had treasure on their land, get a deposit, start looking for the treasure and then when they couldn't find it they claimed it had been taken away by a spirit of some kind. In fact, Joseph Smith even used animal sacrifices to get rid of these "evil spirits" so they could locate the treasure.

This is an affidavit published in 1834 by William Stafford who was a neighbor of the Smith family:

Joseph Smith, Sen., came to me one night, and told me that Joseph Smith Jr. had been looking in his glass, and had seen, not many rods from his house, two or three kegs of gold and silver…

Joseph, Sen. first made a circle, twelve or fourteen feet in diameter. This circle, said he, contains the treasure. He then stuck in the ground a row of witch hazel sticks, around the said circle, for the purpose of keeping off the evil spirits. Within this circle he made another, of about eight or ten feet in diameter. He walked around three times on the periphery of this last circle, muttering to himself something which I could not understand. He next stuck a steel rod in the centre of the circles, and then enjoined profound silence upon us, lest we should arouse the evil spirit who had the charge of these treasures.

After we had dug a trench about five feet in depth around the rod, the old man… went to the house to inquire of young Joseph the cause of our disappointment. He soon returned and said, that Joseph had remained all this time in the house, looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit – that he saw the spirit come up to the ring and as soon as it beheld the cone which we had formed around the rod, it caused the money to sink… another time, they devised a scheme, by which they might satiate their hunger, with the mutton of one of my sheep. They had seen in my flock a sheep, a large, fat, black weather.

Old Joseph and one of the boys came to me one day, and said that Joseph Jr. had discovered some very remarkable and valuable treasures, which could be procured only in one way. That way, was as follows: – That a black sheep should be taken to the ground where the treasures were concealed – that after cutting its throat, it should be led around in a circle while bleeding. This being done, the wrath of the evil spirit would be appeased: the treasures could then be obtained, and my share of them was to be four fold. To gratify my curiosity, I let them have a large fat sheep.

They afterwards informed me, that the sheep was killed pursuant to commandment; but as there was some mistake in the process, it did not have the desired effect. This, I believe, is the only time they ever made money-digging a profitable business. (Mormonism Unvailed, 1834, pages 238-239; also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 2, pp.59-61)

So, again we see a case where Joseph Smith scammed yet another person with his magic seer stone. He wasn't formally charged in this example or taken to court, but it's obvious that he didn't have the skills that the promised he did.

He lied.

People attempting to paint Joseph Smith as fraud are missing a rather key and important point:

Joseph never made much money off his endeavors, and he never "skipped town." He stuck around and stood behind his work. No one with purely fraudulent motives would have done so.

We don't really have to attempt to paint Joesph a certain way. He did a pretty good job of that on his own. The facts and evidence speak for themselves.

Joseph probably never made much on his endeavors because he didn't find the treasure he promised to them. That is why he was prosecuted for fraud in the first place. Just because he didn't make money on the deal or didn't run away from the accusations doesn't mean that he wasn't the fraud he was! He was lying to people all the time, telling them of his powers and never being able to give the treasures he promised. That is okay to you? Interesting.

Now, if we want to question whether or not Joseph Smith ever skipped town, we can. Remember when he ordered that the Nauvoo Expositor be burned down? He was going to be thrown in jail and he took off? He did come back, but he still took off ;)

I personally count Joseph Smith among those honorable community seers who were a fixture in American communities in 18th and early 19th century America. Sure, there were con artists. But the presence of a few bad doctors for instance (and believe me - there were a LOT of those in 1800s America) does not render the entire profession as frauds.

Of course you do.

That shouldn't surprise anyone.

Unfortunately, though... most people not looking at this through the Mormon rose-colored glasses see this the same way I do. I am aware that there were bad doctors and con artists, but that doesn't mean that God would choose one of those con artists for a prophet. Makes no sense. Especially after he lied and continued to lie for the rest of his life.

No one today would claim that just because a man was a doctor, or a lawyer, or a newspaper man in the 1800s, he was automatically a disreputable person.

So why do essentially the same thing with seers? Like any profession, you had your good eggs and your bad eggs. Joseph appears to have been one of the good ones.

It shouldn't shock you, but I don't believe in seers.

Joseph Smith never once found treasure that he promised to people. In order to believe someone as an honest seer or psychic on modern-day terms, I would have to see the proof. There is no proof for any psychic or person claiming to have abilities that others do not. Also, it's quite telling that when people tell you they have a seeing gift of some kind they usually want money from you. Interesting, isn't it? Money is the bottom line in these kinds of scams.

You can read more on this subject here: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2009_Joseph_the_Seer.html

So there's one response. More to come. Unless you want to stop and respond to this point...

Thank you for the response.

I have read the fairlds website many times over... hahaha... believe me. If you could only see the list of Mormon apologetics webpages I have scoured and searched over the past three years... whew. It's unreal.

The issue of money digging, being convicted for fraud and believing himself to be a seer is just one of the examples of Joseph's lies. He lied about polygamy as well, and instructed others to lie for him as well. It wasn't honest, he wasn't honorable.

In my opinion, those who are in the church want to believe so desperately that they are willing to excuse Joseph's behavior when in fact they should be taking it into account as evidence that he wasn't who he claimed to be.

Why would a God choose a liar as a prophet if no one would believe him? Not that there is a God... haha...

Andee

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