Windy Sydney

Here are a few of my favorite examples of how missionaries use "milk before meat" to keep members and investigators away from anything that might keep them from the church. This is far from honest, in my humble opinion.

For the complete list that Richard Packham wrote, complete with notes, please click here.

Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."

Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.

Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.

The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.

Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

• The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father)
• The United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church)
• Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven)
• the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978)
• Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities)

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.

Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

• The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.
• The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.
• The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.

Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy:

• God was once a man like us.
• God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
• God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
• God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
• Jesus was married.
• We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
• There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
• Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
• Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
• We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
• The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").
• In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
• Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
• Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
• The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
• Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
• Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
• Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
• The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
• If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
• A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
• You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

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Those who leave the Mormon church and have huge families within it have usually dealt with manipulation by leaders, friends and family members. Sometimes these people don't even realize they are using manipulation techniques to get their sinful, evil, non-tithing paying people back into the church, they are only focused on the end result... making sure everyone is on the straight and narrow.

Some stories of manipulation are kind of funny... take my case in high school for instance...

I had stopped attending church because I thought it was sexist. I couldn't take anymore girl's activities that included quilting, baking, sewing and crafting while the guys got to do things like repelling and playing ball. It was more that that, though. Our lessons consisted of telling us that we should marry a return missionary in the temple, have tons of babies and be faithful our entire lives. When I asked about a career (wanted to be a doctor at the time) I was told to pray about it, and if God wanted me to be a doctor, I shouldn't wait to get married and have kids... because yeah... med school is so easy with a newborn and toddler in the house?

Anyway, when I stopped attending I had a YW leader that took me on as a personal project. I wasn't exactly little miss popular in my tiny school, but I had tons of friends... most of them were non-Mormons. Suddenly, a couple really popular Mormon girls kept asking me to hang out with them... they acted as if we were best buddies and they couldn't wait to get together for this or that. I usually politely declined because I saw it for what it was... they really didn't care about *me* they just wanted my happy ass back in church every Sunday to hear their message.

Now, whats so bad about that? Right? A couple kids pretending to give a shit about your life and constantly (and I mean CONSTANTLY) requesting your presence in church activities and Sunday school?

It wasn't genuine.

I wanted a genuine life and genuine friends... not people who would like me as long as I did what they wanted me to do. A lifetime of fakery? No thanks.

It could have been much worse.

The other half of the manipulation stories are sometimes incredibly hard to read. Some faithful Mormons will do anything -ANYTHING- to keep their friends and family right where they want them. Regardless of that person's beliefs, thoughts, dreams and goals in life.

Some of these examples I found online in various ex-Mormon forums. I took out the names and usernames of the people who listed them, in case they don't want their information on my blog.

I just talked to my TBM Dad. He and my Mom are visiting next weekend for the first time in three years. They live 8 hours away. We've visited them several times since then and bought a new house last year. They didn't visit us then either. My Mom is retired and my Dad has 5 weeks of vacation plus government holidays. They aren't bedridden or in jail either.

Recently, they started making rumblings that they actually might visit us. My wife made the prediction that they would come late on a Saturday night so they can stay with us for free on the way to something else, go to church here, and leave immediately after Sacrament meeting.

Well, give the lady a prize! This morning, my Dad IM'd me and said that they are driving out to "Firth," Idaho (wherever in God's creation that is) to pick up an old truck that he bought off the Internet. They'll be here Saturday night, stay the night, and then leave immediately after Sacrament meeting. And he wants me to call around and find out when the earliest service is, so they can be on their way as soon as possible. Apparently because his fingers are broken and he can't look it up on mormon.org himself.

I was SO offended! They go to church every week, and they can't miss even this one time to spend 70 minutes with us. It's nice knowing where you fit in the overall scheme of things with your own parents. (1. Cult, 2. Kids.) I called [her] and told her about it, and she absolutely blew her top. She said that they should not even bother stopping by. And if they do, they can pay a normal motel rate.

You see... the church means more to these parents than their family does. The church claims to be family first -unless that family isn't what you are- a faithful member of the LDS Church.

The reason I believe this is manipulation is because the parents have been manipulated into thinking they are doing the right thing by putting the church first. Is this fair to them? The actual members of the church who pay their dues and attend the millions of meetings every month? Is it fair to their grandkids who will only know that the church meant more to their grandpa and grandma than they did?

I particularly loathe the "hey buddy" shoulder/back affection, where the garment inspector pats you on the shoulder, or goes for an arm-over-the-shoulder manuever to see if he can feel garment seams. It's spooky, and just plain *wrong*.

Is this manipulation?

Yes!

You see, the member that checks for garments isn't only doing just that... nope. He's keeping the other person in check. He's basically saying, "Gee, you don't have garments on... hmmm... what kind of sin have you committed? Why aren't you wearing them? I'll pray for you and tell everyone I know to do the same."

In my humble opinion, they are trying to use guilt and shame to get the ex-member back into a church pew on Sunday.

I will leave you with this list of quotes that TBM friends and family members said to one couple as they were leaving the church. It's amazing.

Mother1: "I can't believe how bad you turned out."

Mother2: "Shame on you! You should know better than that!"

Brother: "Don't try explaining, there's no excuse for leaving and you'll never convince me."

Brother in Law1: "You bastard. You've deceived our sister with your anti-mormon lies."

Brother in Law2: "I can't believe how stupid you are."

Sister in Law1: "I pray you come back before God punishes you."

Sister in Law2: "How can you betray your family like this?"

Father in Law: "Well, I don't know if the church is true or not, but I have a lot of friends there."

Mother in Law: "So what commandment couldn't you live?"

Missionary after I closed the door: "You still know it's true!"

TBM Friend: "I'm so dissapointed in you. What's wrong with you?"

TBM Friend: "I don't believe any of those anti-mormon lies. The Book of Mormon is true and that makes the church true - don't make excuses."

TBM Friend: "Well, I've had too many spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon to ever deny it."

TBM Friend: "When things get really hard in your life, you'll come back. I hope it doesn't take a tragedy to get you to repent."

When I originally posted this message, I got a lot of responses. Here's a collection of what other people heard from their TBM friends and relatives:

"I have heard you criticize and find fault with the Church so you can justify your decision to leave and this makes me very sad."

"What happened? I am disappointed in you!!"

"I hoped that by experiencing other Christian beliefs you would seek to gain a stronger testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ like I had done."

"My testimony of the Gospel has been challenged more than you will ever know, and I have stayed true to faith."

"I am deeply saddened that you have caved to the beliefs of man."

"You can go to some feel good Christian church as long as you want, but this church will never provide you with blessings of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ"

"You have no clue how much you have hurt mom/dad with your decision to leave the Church. How can you throw away everything she/he taught you like this?"

"Did you ever think just once what impact your decision would have upon ______?"

"I do not know about you, but I am choosing to Honor My Parents by staying true to the principles of Gospel Of Jesus Christ that we were taught as youth."

"How can you throw your missions away like this?"

"You may betray the truth but I will not."

"I hope you get your act together before your youngest child turns 8, as it would be a real shame for your children to grow up without the light of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in their lives."

"I would gladly come and baptize ______ if _______ was given the opportunity to learn about the Church. I have seen a change for the worse in _____ countenance and this is really upsetting to me."

"It is clear that you blame the Church for much of your problems and you figure that by running away from the Church your problems will go away!! They may go away for a little while but they will be back. The easy way out is just that - the easy way out."

"I was pretty shocked when we visited you and when we said we were going to the Temple and I asked if you had seen it yet you said no."

"You now know how I feel. I will not say what I have just said again. You will be very upset with me with for the things I have just said! They are the truth and sometimes the truth hurts."

"You will probably find fault with me for telling you how it is."

"Those Mormons really attack you when you leave the church..etc...etc....blah, blah, blah." Get over it."

"Please do not try to explain to me why you left the Church, because there is no good reason to leave."

"You can call it the "Mormon Belief System," "Mormonism," or whatever you like. I will tell you what it is: It is The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ!"

"You used to have such a SWEET spirit."

"How can you forget all the Lord has blessed you with?"

"You know what I pray for? That you'll come back to the Church."

"Your leaving the church has strenghthened our testimonies."

"If you don't have what it takes to live the Gospel, you should at least take your daughter to Church so that she can know the truth. She shouldn't suffer for your sake."

"Have your husband reread section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, because the sin on his head for leaving the Church as a priesthood holder is greater."

"Can we still send the HT and VT to your home?"

"What are you going to do someday when you are dead and standing before the Lord and he asks: "Why did you persecute my Church?""

"This is the worst possible thing you could have done."

"But, if it weren't for the church, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN BORN!"

"I read all the anti-mormon literature too, and came to the opposite conclusion as you. I know obedience to authority is a key part of God's plan."

"That's not what the Church teaches!"

Stake President: (Hand raised to the square) "I declare in the name of Jesus Christ that this church is true."

Bishop: "When I find myself out of synch with the prophet, it means I have to change."

"Remember the warning, "Why do the women have to veil their faces during the "true order" of prayer, while the men do not? Aren't the symbolic and theological implications of this huge -- suggesting that women have a less direct link to the Mormon god than men do?'God will NOT be mocked'?"

"Your (deceased) mother/father would be so dissappointed that you are not raising your children in the church."

"You'll come back after you know what it feels like without the spirit"

"You knew it was true! You said it many times, so don't deny your testimony now."

"I have seen a decline in your general character."

"You've lost the light of Christ"

"You're so much angrier now that you want to leave the church"

"You're going to perdition because you had a full knowledge of the gospel and you're rejecting it."

"I hope I'll be allowed to come down and see you after we die."

"We believe in eternal families...that is what grandpa taught."

"I hope you rot in your lonely miserable apartment!"

"You know what you are doing is wrong!"

"But you've been through the temple!"

"So, are you going to start drinking?"

"If you don't believe it anymore then you have no business talking about it."

"I'll pray for you and hope you'll do the same for me."

"You're just pretending not to believe so that you can sin."

"Look in the mirror - can't you see how ugly you are?"

"Something terrible must have happened on your mission."

"You're like a fish in the ocean who sticks his head up and say "Where's all the water?" You've been surrounded by the Spirit your whole life. You just don't recognize it."

"You were a valiant spirit in the pre-existence. Satan knows that. So he's fighting especially hard to get your soul.

"It's so sad to see your children growing up without the Church."

"I wish I cold come back when I die and tell you the truth, but I don't think it works that way."

"You realize of course that there won't be a place for you at Jesus' table?"

"There won't be any oil in YOUR lamp, when the time comes!"

"I'm sure that those who leave the church won't become sons of perdition because they didn't really understand the gospel. Anyone who really understood would never deny it."

Andee

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All emphasis is mine...

Janice Peterson - Daily Herald

PROVO -- A Brigham Young University student was arrested on attempted kidnapping and assault charges Thursday after he allegedly used a stun gun on a woman and tried to handcuff her.

Police say Stetson Hallam, 20, was the 19-year-old woman's home teacher in their LDS ward, and the two lived in the same apartment complex south of BYU. Provo police Sgt. Mark Crosby said Hallam had pursued the woman romantically, but she did not have any interest in him. He was persistent in trying to date her, Crosby said, to the point where she felt "creeped out" by Hallam.

Look at this sleeze-ball! He was called to be a home teacher by his bishop and fell in love with a woman. He probably felt the spirit telling him that they were destined to be together for eternity. What do you want to bet? After all, he's a priesthood holder and he can get promptings from God, right?

Where was the spirit warning this woman that she needed to GTF away from this weirdo? Where was the spirit when he was "called by God" to be her home teacher? What kind of promptings did this asshole's bishop get when he called this guy for this position, and who did he get these promptings from??

According to a police affidavit, Hallam repeatedly contacted the woman, telling her he had a gift for her. She put off meeting with Hallam until she could have a roommate present, police say, and she was successful until Tuesday.

Around 3 p.m. that day, Hallam contacted the woman and asked to meet with her, according to the affidavit. She reportedly told him she could not because she would be working until 9:30 p.m., and she said he could leave the gift at her apartment. However, when she arrived at her apartment complex, she saw Hallam standing outside and felt he was waiting for her, according to the affidavit. She went to her apartment through a side entrance, but allegedly found Hallam waiting for her at her door.

Hallam allegedly convinced the woman to come with him to a common laundry room in the basement of the complex, where he told her one of his roommates had helped him set up a scavenger hunt for the woman's gift. The woman reportedly told police she could see no signs of other people present and became suspicious.

Gifts from home teachers are nothing new. They are usually little cards or photos of Jesus with candy attached, or bags of candy with scripture verses from the Book of Mormon... even the scavenger hunt thing is believable. When I was in young womens, this was promoted as just a good time with a healthy interaction between the young men and women. However, these are grown ass adults. A scavenger hunt? This is BYU for you... stunting the ability for these people to grow up!

I have had home teachers and even an over zealous young women's leader wait for me at my place until I got home from work back in the day. It was creepy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Mormonism for this guy's behavior... but I do think that the woman was too lenient on the man because of their religion. You will see why in a minute...

According to the affidavit, Hallam told the woman the gift was "junk art" and was located in a bin underneath a table in the room. The woman reportedly described the bin to police as five feet long by two feet wide and three feet tall, with a lockable lid and handles. Hallam reportedly told the woman some of her gift was Easter candy, which he had left in his car. He then allegedly left the room, during which time the woman did not approach the bin, believing it may be part of a practical joke, according to police.

When Hallam returned, he allegedly encouraged the woman to open the bin and pulled it out from under the table to alleviate her fear, according to the affidavit. The woman then reportedly opened the bin and found it to be empty.

At this point, Hallam allegedly produced a stun gun, a handheld rectangular device with two metal prongs on the end. He allegedly pressed the device against the woman's arm and she felt a surge pass through her body, according to the affidavit. Police say the surge incapacitated the woman and caused her to collapse to the floor, at which point Hallam pinned her to the ground.

Hmmm.... interesting, isn't it?

Seriously... my intuition would have been screaming at me to get the fuck out of there and she let him in? She went to the laundry room? She opened the box?

I'm not trying to poke fun at her or even claim that she was stupid... I can't imagine the terror she was going through at the moment. Please don't think I'm trying to be cold and mean. I'm just trying to make the point that the spirit wasn't really protecting her that day... was it?

The woman reportedly became frightened for her life and did not know what Hallam's true intentions were, according to the affidavit. She allegedly began screaming and fighting Hallam, who police say placed his hand over her mouth. He also allegedly produced a pair of handcuffs and put one of the rings on the woman's left hand. While he was applying the handcuffs, police say, Hallam's hand slipped and his finger went into the woman's mouth. She allegedly bit down on his finger until he let her go and apologized, claiming it was all an April Fool's joke.

The woman was able to get away and reported the incident to police April 8, according to police. Crosby said he did not know why the report was delayed, but a delay is common with this type of allegations. When she reported the incident, burn marks were still visible on her arm, as was bruising on her wrist, Crosby said.

"Several days later, we're still able to have signs," he said.

Police conducted a search on Hallam's room and car late Thursday night, but Crosby said he does not know what was found. Crosby said police were interested in finding the bin the girl described, which was not an item usually found in the laundry room. Although Crosby said Hallam never tried to force the woman into the bin or trick her into getting inside, he said it is still an important piece of evidence given the circumstances.

I would love to know why she didn't report the incident when it happened... did she go to her bishop first? Did she talk about it with friends or other leaders at either church or BYU? Did they ask her to delay the reporting?

I could be wrong here... but they have done this sort of thing in regards to other criminal behavior before. Especially when it includes sexual crimes and priesthood holders. Scout leaders, bishops, and others were given a "repent and all is well," free pass. Were they trying to help this guy?

"His whole premise was wanting her to open that box," he said.

Hallam was arrested Thursday night and booked into the Utah County Jail, where he is being held on a $5,000 bond on third-degree felony charges of aggravated assault and attempted kidnapping. According to the affidavit, police found a bite mark on the middle finger of Hallam's left hand.

Crosby said police are interviewing Hallam's roommates, but are uncertain which roommate he may have been referring to with the scavenger hunt because Hallam would not speak with police.

"He's not cooperating with us," Crosby said.

Crosby said Hallam does not appear to have any criminal history, and police have found no evidence so far of any history of mental illness.

"That's something that we're going to follow up on," he said.

Carri Jenkins, spokeswoman for BYU, said she had little information about the incident Friday. However, she confirmed that Hallam is a sophomore at the university. She said the university's Honor Code Office will now begin its own review of the incident to determine what actions should be taken. If it is determined that a person is a danger to the community, he or she may be banned from campus, but Jenkins said she does not know what decision will be made in this case.

"Every case is handled on an individual basis," she said.

He was arrested for aggrivated assault and attempted kidnapping. If the police have grounds to arrest him and hold him on bond, what other kinds of evidence do you need to know he broke the fucking honor code?

Come on!

The guy is a menace who was probably planning on kidnapping that woman and taking her away in that ridiculous box of his!

Yes, lets pray on it and make sure we are making the right decision. We need to make sure he's a real danger to the Lord's University before booting his ass off campus... after all, he's a priesthood holder, right?

Personally, I'd like to find him and wipe that smug look off his face... unfortunately for me, I have too much self control for that kind of thing... something he might want to google and do research on: self control.

What a mess.

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You Should Read This...

Temple Wedding Off Limits to Non-Mormon Family

This perfectly illustrates the pain that families go through when it comes to temple weddings. The belief that a loving God would ask true believers to do this to their families? I won't ever understand it... and I had a problem with it even in my most believing of days.

I hope this petition grows. I'm gonna sign it.

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The Church has unveiled a new video on lds.org telling the Young Women about the brand new Personal Progress books and website... and they are PINK! Ooooh, that will get girls to pay attention. Pink! Please watch the video. Please. You won't be disappointed.

Okay, see what I mean about the word Pink? Hilarious, isn't it? It's PINK!

Anyway, I would love to go into detail about this video and how disturbingly bad and wrong it is, and so I'm going to do it. You have been warned.

First of all, what ever happened to people being real? The women in this video are in la-la land, smiling that spirit-driven smile, glancing at one another as if they are in the Brady Bunch opening. Look how proud they are of their new pink handbook! The one they had nothing to do with! The one men wrote and gave to them!

They look like they are so drugged up on Prozac that they can't even focus on the camera. They are so sweet... but not a good sweet. Too sweet. So sweet that the sugar in my bloodstream as caused me to go into church-shock. Give me a break ladies... be who you are. Not who the church wants you to be.


But that is the main problem with the whole personal progress thing anyway...

It teaches young women who the church wants them to be, and doesn't give them any room to be themselves. It's a shame really.

The personal progress book taught me that God wanted me to be feminine, a mother, a wife, a temple-attending-tithing-paying robot like the rest of my Mormon friends... but I knew that wouldn't make me happy. I knew it in my head and in my heart... and when I told my leaders about this, I was told to pray more. To fast... and then I wasn't being sincere with my prayers because their advice didn't work. I didn't fit their mold and it was because I wasn't good enough.

There was a lot of talk about my "divine role" when I was a teenager. They make it sound so wonderful, don't they? A role that God himself wanted me to fulfill?

Why do this to young women?

I'll tell you why.

To keep the machine moving.

I have read on forums that baptisms are down, people are leaving the church and taking their entire families with them. The internet has made it difficult to keep the hard-to-believe doctrine away from potential converts and interested members.

The main way to keep the church growing is to tell the young men and women at an early age that they must follow God's plan to marry in the temple, have lots of babies, and raise them in the church. That way, there are tons of small children ready for their brainwashing as soon as they can say "Jesus Wants Me For A Sunbeam."


Let's get back to the review...

Look! There is a picture of the temple on the front of the progress book. Wow, thats something. Isn't it? I mean, heaven knows a young woman can't have enough pictures of the temple, right? You see, that is to remind them, as often as possible, what their goals SHOULD be. Temple marriage and children.

They promise that there are plenty of blessings that come with getting married in the temple, or just attending the temple in general... but everyone I have ever talked to about this can't really say they were more blessed than someone else. It's just a promise that can't be delivered.

Parents who were married in the temple have just as many problems, accidents, sicknesses, and random acts of anything than the rest of us.


What blessings are they talking about? The afterlife? Thats funny... because no one knows what happens in the afterlife, and they are drilling these things into the heads of young ladies that the only way they will be happy is following their directions. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Now, they tell the young women that they will learn new things, study the scriptures and pray every single day. These are things the young women are probably already doing in most TBM households. The new things they learn? How to sew, cook, clean and organize a home, how to care for babies and children, how to be a helpmeet to your priesthood holding husband who is the head of the family... you get the idea.

They offer pretty ribbons and necklaces as gifts for completing the lessons. This is amazing when you see it from the other side. What young woman doesn't want to earn those pretty ribbons? Those necklaces? What young woman (especially in a Mormon Community) doesn't want to show her friends how well she's doing and how many ribbons she has earned?

A tip for young women seeking truth? Go to JoAnn's and buy some ribbons. Give me a break.


Oh, yes... the young women are going through so many changes in their lives. Of course people notice. Especially the church. The church wont let them forget. The separate them from the boys, and constantly feed them "girl stuff" (for lack of a better explanation). What harm could come from teaching men and women the same thing about scriptures and church doctrine in the same class?

The entire video is just... fake. It's sad how they talk to the young women as though they are 5 years old and can't possibly comprehend anything without the super-sweet baby talk.

I'm so glad I'm out.

Andee

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Okay, I have to admit that I have read the first three books of the Left Behind series. I actually really enjoyed them, and their... well, their imagination.

Anyway, the whole "Left Behind" thing plus the television show "Punked" have inspired a group of Christians to create "Prank 3:16." Thanks to Christian Nightmares for this link!

Apparently, the show producers go out of their way to convince a random fellow Christian that the rapture has taken place, and scare her into thinking she has been left behind by the Lord.



This really bothers me for some reason, and I can't really put my finger on it.

I just think that it's pretty sad to do this to someone who has devoted their life to living their religion. Yeah, I know it's a prank... I just think it's a pretty mean prank.

Kind of like those fake lottery tickets? I think thats pretty damned mean. Not funny at all. Think of the relief those people feel thinking they have won millions, and then the heartbreak that it wasn't real? That their money problems were not suddenly solved?

Next, this girl isn't a very good actress... and the host isn't that much better. I don't buy for one second that her reaction was real. The whole thing was planned ahead of time... including her. Maybe it's me.

What do you think?

What would you think if this was a REAL show?

Now, I have written about this before, but I feel the need to share the story one more time.

When I was in girls camp, we were asked out of our sleeping bags in the middle of the night one night, blindfolded, and told to follow a trail and hold onto a rope and not let go... no matter what. There were older girls from the staff trying to trick us into letting go of this rope, but I just wanted the exercise to be over with, so I held on. When I got to the end of the rope, there was a huge tree covered in white Christmas lights and the adults were all dressed in white.

I had followed the plan and held onto the rope and therefore I had made it to heaven. Lucky me. What happened to the other girls who let go? They were taken to a clearing and given a lecture about holding onto the gospel and following the Lord's plan no matter what... and how people will try to trick them into letting go of their "rope."

These girls were then given a second chance to follow the trail and join the rest of us in heaven, but when they got there they were crying and sad. They felt they were not good enough and even the older girls who had tricked them into letting go were sad... sad that they had been the ones to lead the younger girls "astray."

The next morning, at the sunrise testimony meeting, many of these girls who let go bore their testimony-tearfully mind you- that they had learned a valuable lesson. That they never knew when their time would be up, and that they had to hold onto the church and it's teachings at all time, or risk everything.

I think tricks and pranks like these are manipulative and really creepy. The experience I went through is burned into my mind forever... kind of like a movie. It was one of my very first WTF moments.

Andee

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This is old, and I have posted it before... but I would like to remember it.

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The Official Street Preacher Website has an entire page detailing what is wrong about Mormonism, mentioning (among others):

MORMON THEOLOGY CONCERNING NEGROS

JOSEPH SMITH AND THE MAGIC SEER STONES!

JOSEPH SMITH'S LUST FILLED LIFE, HE HAD ALMOST 3 DOZEN WIVES!!!

Let me be honest, the Official Street Preacher website could easily be satire, and my exhausted human brain is unable to pick up on the sarcasm (I'm 90% sure it's sarcasm, but we all know there are people who are mentally ill enough to mean everything this guy says on the page... It's kind of like someone watching or reading the Onion News Network for the first time thinking, "Wait... that ain't right!"). Hopefully one of my wonderful, smart, beautiful readers will know more about this website and fill me in on the over-the-top insaneness that is Official Street Preacher.

That being said, it's funny to me how easy it is for religions to poke at each other...

"Mormonism is ridiculous for this reason!"

Um... yeah, but your religion is just as fucking ridiculous, you just fail to look at your faith with the same skeptical eyes you view others.

Don't get me wrong. Mormonism *is* bat-shit crazy. I would know. I just find this amusing.

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I had a dream last night that I was walking around temple square in Salt Lake City with my Dad (who passed away from cancer in 1998). Dad wasn't religious at all, and that is what made the whole dream even weirder... I guess it was just one of those things. I have always had dreams with my loved ones who have passed away.

A couple years ago, if I had this same dream, I would be jumping up and down because my Dad came to visit me in a dream. I used to think that they were really reaching out to me and trying to communicate with me or give me a message. Now? Not so much.

Church dreams usually piss me off. Probably because I never remember the whole dream and I start obsessing about what happened. This leads to more thinking about the church, it's doctrines and how much it really fucked with my head.

Sometimes I feel like I have been able to put the church thing behind me, other times I get just as angry as I did when I found out the truth for the first time. Is it something I can get over? Maybe. I think it would be easier if my family members didn't assume the worst of me all the time, dropping not-so-subtle hints about going to church or saying a prayer, giving me the evil eye every time they see a coffee mug in my hand... you get the idea.

When I started learning the truth, I was really mad. I was mad that I was lied to. I wanted to drive to Salt Lake City and demand answers from the men in white shirts. I wanted to scream from the balcony of a hotel...

"They are lying!!! Lying!!"


Of course that would have been counterproductive and I would have ended up in jail :) So, I started WindySydney instead, starting out as an anonymous person questioning Mormonism in the heart of LDS Country. I am glad I did. It's great therapy.

The truth.

The church taught me to tell the truth since the time I was a sunbeam. Tell the truth, kiddos! God is always watching you. The Deity won't hesitate to put down marks on your permanent record! Lies only get bigger and bigger until they explode and ruin your life!

Why can't they take their own advice?

Why is it that they are not completely truthful to the members of their church? To the people who are considering getting baptized?


Oh, I know... there are many Mormons who will claim they know everything about church history and they still "know" the church is true. They claim that the lack of information or lack of complete information isn't important at all, and that we shouldn't worry about it. Seth, the Mormon commenter I finally started ignoring due to his arrogance and condescending attitude, would always make these points.

If it's not important, then why bother hiding it? Why go out of your way to tell the people in the church that they can't trust information from anyone else? Why edit the Book of Mormon and change things? Why don't they discuss certain aspects of church history and really get into the heart of the matter?

My Mom and I were talking a long time ago, and she told me she wanted nothing more than to go to Relief Society and have a lengthy conversation about polygamy, both in this life and the afterlife. That would never happen, though. It's not talked about because they would rather not talk about it and live in denial.

People are afraid of the truth.

How is it that certain people automatically get believed when they spout off nonsense? Pat Robertson is a good example, Thomas S. Monson is another. Regardless of what these two people say or do (among others) their followers will believe them. No questions asked. None.

Anyone who sets him or herself up as God's infallible wing-man on earth should be looked at from every angle. Instead, the sheeple nod their heads, say their prayers and thank their God that they belong to the right church.

What has Thomas S. Monson done to prove he is a prophet? What kind of prophecy has he given that has come true? Has he ever made comments about meeting with Jesus and God in the temple? Having conversations with them about things? Has he ever even attempted to show the people on earth that he really is a prophet?


I think it comes down to one very important decision everyone has to make at one point or another...

Do I want to go along with the flow, or do I want to find the truth about things?

Is the truth more important than the warm fuzzies?

Is the truth worth alienating friends and family members?

Is the truth worth the constant comments and aggravation from members of the church who are convinced I am being misled?

The answer to those questions is a big, fat YES.

I want to know things, to understand them, to embrace what we have in the moment. I don't want to cross my fingers that I choose the right religion, waste time in hundreds of meetings, pray to a God that will ignore you, give up 10% of my money, or belong to a corporation that doesn't think twice about trying to limit the rights of people who are different than they are.


It wasn't easy to learn the truth and have to make big decisions about who I should tell or shouldn't tell. I knew first hand what the church tells members about apostates. I knew what I was up against... and until Mormons go through that themselves they have no idea just how huge and life-changing that can be.

The church was a part of my very existence. It was something I thought about constantly. It's hard to walk away from the normalcy, the comfortable bubble.

I still find myself humming church hymns. I will be walking over to my Mom's house and I will find myself singing Nearer My God to Thee, Choose the Right, Teach Me To Walk in the Light, Count Your Blessings, and I am a Child of God. Those melodies will be in my head forever... and they are catchy, too. Especially after singing them every Sunday (sometimes more) in a boring, slow paced, nearly monotone, funeral death march beat.

So, I have a question for you guys...

Why is it that certain topics are taboo? Not discussed? Why doesn't the church address these things head-on instead of pretending they are not there?

Why are there historically incorrect pictures shown to members of the church that conveniently leave out things like seer stones?

Why doesn't the church recognize that the Book of Abraham isn't even close to being what Joseph Smith said it was?

Why do they tell the members of the church that they shouldn't go on the internet for information about church history and instead only trust info that comes directly from the men in white shirts?

I think I will always be angry about this. Not because I have a dark, Godless heart... but because I went through so much guilt and drama. My anger isn't directed at the members of the church, it's directed to the leaders who have the information at their fingertips and continue to make excuses for the actions of prior leaders.

If you aren't angry, you aren't paying attention.

It's not even close to being a moral thing to do... picking and choosing what information to give. It's so underhanded and sly that it makes me shake my head in disgust.

How do they get away with it?

Shouldn't people all over the world hold religious organizations accountable for the outright lies they tell on a daily basis? Why aren't there more people willing to stand up and demand answers from these people?

I do take comfort in knowing that there are more and more people coming to their senses about Mormonism. That goes for other religions as well. The age of information is upon us, and those who take advantage of the wealth of information learn and grow. Atheism is getting more and more common, and while I don't really care what people believe (as long as they don't make me live by their religious rules: UTAH) I think it's good that people are looking at things in a logical and careful manner.

Blind faith gets you nowhere. You just spin your wheels, devoting time and energy to a belief system that just isn't right. You feel guilt for normal things, you give money to an already wealthy church, and you beat yourself up for not being who the "Lord" wants you to be.

I love truth.

Andee

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You guys know by now that I spend a decent amount of time watching video clips and reading about religion and atheism. I love to learn and laugh and THINK (yes, LDS pals... THINK).

Well, I found this clip of Bill Millet giving a talk about how to address the skeptical and challenging questions people ask church members. The clip on YouTube was taken down for one reason or another at some point and this is a re-upload of the same clip. The video will probably be removed again at some point, so sorry if you didn't catch the movie in time. Why would they take down this video? I don't really know. Some Mormon probably flagged the video and went off on a bitch-fest that people were bashing Mormons and their leaders. Waaa Waaa they are so picked on. :(



This asswad is giving people in the audience instructions on how to lie...

"Don't answer the question they asked... answer they question they should have asked."

How arrogant, deceitful, and crazy is that?

The sheeple don't see it this way, though. Any religious Mormon would tell you that anything coming from the mouths of leaders in the church is inspired by the magical undies and male priesthood superpowers.

The people in this guy's audience were probably told that they were honored to have this man speak to them. They probably heard stories about Millet and what a good man he is. They probably overheard one Mormon saying to another, "You can tell he is a good and honest man. He has a spiritual glow." I'm not sure if others have heard the "spiritual glow" thing, it might just be me. A Mormon figurehead of one kind or another is right because God would never allow the church to be led astray.

"Don't pay attention to what is behind that curtain, kids. We will tell you what you need to know."

This very topic is why people exiting the church are so angry. We were not given the truth, the complete story, the good AND the bad. Nope. God is pleased with their ways of manipulating people into believing the BS spewed from the church over the years. It's okay to lie or omit information because it's God's will.

*puke*

The milk before meat talk angers the hell out of me. Don't tell me what questions people should ask the church, answer the questions we have.

It's so boldly arrogant that it makes me want to take the *puke* a couple paragraphs back and throw that puke on his spiritual white dress shirt. The fact that ANYONE feels they have the right to pick and choose what information to give to potential converts is nuts.

It's dishonest.

I hope I am around the day that the church finally has to answer for this bullshit. If that ever happens... but it might. More and more people are waking up to the hypocrisy and mind games and making the decision to leave the church. This also goes for many other religions as well. They feel they have the right to share "milk" only until that person is invested in the church.

Andee

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I thought I would take some time to answer some of this guy's questions...

1. Aren't you using chance in the exact same way in which you accuse Christians of using "God of the Gaps?"

No, I don't believe we are.

I think we are using our common sense and reason and looking at all of the evidence to see if something is logical before we believe it.

Is it likely that a being (don't know what created God, do we?) came out of nowhere and for some strange reason decided to create life, the earth, the universe? Or is it more likely that science and something natural made these things happen?

Most Christians think that Atheists believe that the earth was made out of nothing, or made out of "green goo." They are wrong. Believers are the ones who assume that God created the earth out of nothing but magic and pixie dust. Atheists are usually very clear when they say they don't have all the answers... they are just unwilling to place a God in the gaps that you speak of. We don't have the answers now, but if we continue to study and actively research we might come up with answers they don't involve magic and a God.

If an airplane were to crash into my apartment building right now, should I assume it happened because God does exist and God wanted me to die in a fiery blaze because I dare question his existence? Or, should we look at all available evidence and come to the conclusion that it was something like pilot error or mechanical problems?


This guy mentions that Darwinism makes chance in the form of random variation a creative force in biology, and then says that isn't very intelligent in his opinion. This made me giggle.

Mutations happen. All the time. In animals, in plants, in human beings. In some of these cases, the mutations actually assist the specific species and therefore make that species stronger and less likely to fall prey to something else. If animals with the mutation survive longer, they have more opportunity to breed and therefore pass the mutation on to their offspring. The mutation then becomes somewhat normal... It's survival of the fittest.

Would giraffes with short necks survive a long time? No, they would probably have a hard time finding and gathering food to keep them alive (this is a very simplistic example). Therefore they wouldn't have the same opportunity to pass their specific genetic makeup to potential offspring.

God isn't automatically the answer. Hope that makes sense.

2. Why should there be something instead of nothing?

Why should the answer automatically be God?

Again, this man is assuming that human beings are here because something put us here. It is quite possible that the Earth was created by a series of random events. It is quite possible that there is no deep meaning to life, no giant lessons we are supposed to learn, no tests to pass... nothing.

It's not a comfortable feeling, is it?

Thinking that we don't have a purpose and that when we die we just cease to exist completely?

But it's possible. It is. We don't know it for fact, because there is no way to study people who have died and ask them questions, is there?

I suppose most Christians would say that a God is just as possible, but I have to disagree. Especially the God of the Bible. The God that says slavery is okay, the God that asks for sacrifices, the God that drowned everything on the earth except for Noah and the ark in a giant flood, the God that doesn't step in when innocent children are dying from one thing or another. Is the God I just described a loving God? Far from it. Would I worship someone or something that could sit by and do nothing while there is so much suffering in the world?

Absolutely not.

Again, atheists don't automatically put God in the gaps... if we don't have the answers, we seek the answers. If we find evidence of a just and loving God, most Atheists will be more than willing to look at that evidence and decide for themselves what conclusions to draw. We just don't automatically draw the conclusions. That doesn't make us stupid or silly. It makes us careful.

The guy in the video says that everything must have come into existence at some point and time. Yes, this is true. But again, the answer isn't automatically God... is it? If it was God, who created God? Who created the thing that invented/created God? How did that happen? Instead of seeking answers to these questions before drawing the God conclusion most Christians assume this is all here due to some supernatural event.

He says the world was "fixed" to make life possible. I don't really agree with that. I think that it is much more likely that natural events took place that created the perfect conditions for life to evolve. He says that the biological life itself bears the marks of intelligent design. How is this? What are these marks that prove we came from Adam and Eve instead of evolution? His argument on this is very weak and he gives no examples as to what he is trying to say.

Hell, we might never know what started all this... life... but that doesn't mean I should assume it was a God and stop looking for actual evidence! That would be pretty silly in my opinion.

3. The world has something called "moral order." Where do you get your morals from?

Are you kidding me dude?

Really?

I have morals, I know right from wrong, therefore God exists?

No.

I get my morals from the wonderful parents who raised me. The ones who taught me that I should treat those as I want to be treated. Not out of fear of being punished by them, or by God... but because it's just the right thing to do.

I don't understand why so many religious people out there assume people who don't believe in God are automatically baby-eating, drug-taking, car-stealing, maniacs who look for any opportunity to hurt their fellow man! Come on now!

This argument also brings up another point. How many so-called Christians with a deep belief in a God commit heinous crimes on a daily basis? How is it that the God they believe in doesn't keep them from hurting their fellow man? This leads me to believe that morals have nothing to do with a deity at all... instead, you either have empathy for your fellow man or you don't. You are selfish or you are good. You care or you don't.

The "moral order" of the world is another shocking statement to me.

Where in the world is this moral order?



I read about wars, killing, starving children, rapes, murders... you name it. Are all of the people committing these acts atheists? Nope. In fact, most of the wars are started because of one groups' belief in God or some holy turf war. They don't care who they have to kill to get what God wants them to have. They are right. They are justified because God is on their side.

This is some insanely twisted logic.

He brings up the fact that believers in God look to the future about how we "ought" to behave. He says that evolution has something to do with morals. I disagree. Evolution biology, morals and ethics are something different. A form of philosophy (I guess).

Most of the atheists I know are active in their communities. Doing things to clean up the planet, helping animals, fighting like HELL for equal rights (because God doesn't hate anyone... he doesn't exist), trying to make sure that the entire Earth doesn't go to shit so our children and grandchildren will have a place to exist.

The Bible says that God gave humans dominion over the earth, and to quote my favorite comedian Bill Maher, "It is if God said, 'Take this [the earth] and beatith the shit out of it. For it does not matter. It is a rental.'" If we don't do something about the environment our entire future is at risk. Most Christians believe God is going to come to earth and save the good people during the rapture. Do they not care because they won't have to worry about living on the earth? They will be saved so who gives a shit, right? Do they not realize that they could be very wrong? Where is there sense of morality when it comes to this kind of thing?

Morality needs to be explained, he says.

Let me give it a shot... Morality is caring about your fellow man. Not because of a fear of punishment from God, or even a punishment from law enforcement/prison... but because we, as humans (most of us, anyway), empathize with others. God has nothing to do with this. Sorry.

So, if God=Morals, then why are there so many lying, cheating, abusing believers out there? Why didn't I go out last night and rob a bank for more Christmas money? No God to punish me, so why not??? This is soooo stupid. It's a bad argument. Really bad. Frankly, I think he is pretty damned ignorant for assuming these things about atheists. What is he making his generalizations on? Why does he assume atheists are people with dark hearts and no morals? It's somewhat insulting to tell you the truth. He doesn't have a clue.

4. How did morals evolve?

Hmmm... lets see here.

Killing is bad because you are forcing your will upon another living creature. You are taking something that doesn't belong to you (their life) and therefore you have no right to do it.

Do I need a God to tell me that murder is bad? That I shouldn't eat babies for breakfast? That I shouldn't rob the bank at the end of my street because I need more money for Christmas presents? No. I know the difference between right and wrong. I wouldn't want someone to murder me or one of my family members, so I treat them as I want to be treated.

This isn't a question about God/religion at all. This is a question about empathy. It's a question about those who care about their fellow man and those who don't. If you were to do a study on this, I would be willing to bet that there are just as many Christians out there committing horrible acts as atheists. As a matter of fact, there are so many more Christians than atheists that there are probably more Christians committing these crimes than atheists. Does that mean God doesn't exist?

His caveman story made me chuckle.

Atheists are not moral because we want our species to survive. I mean, of course we want our species (and planet) to survive, but that isn't what we base our morals on. If I killed someone in cold blood, I would feel guilty. Not because I had done something to make it harder for the species to survive, but because I took the life of someone else. I took them away from their family, friends and loved ones, and I had no right to do so.

Again, this guy is pretty convinced that our conscience (something that everyone has unless they are suffering from one mental illness or another... sociopaths come to mind) is in fact the voice of God telling us right from wrong. Mormons believe this is the Holy Ghost. I believe this is something that ALL people have, and some people choose not to listen to it. Some people don't give a shit about anyone but them... and all of those people are not atheists, are they?

This argument is flawed. Just because he doesn't understand it, doesn't make him right... haha..

5. Can nature generate complex organisms, in the sense of originating it, when previously there was none?

Again, we don't know what created the Earth... but the answer isn't automatically supernatural. Why draw that conclusion immediately? Study it, look at it from all angles, come up with theories of how this could have happened. Which of the theories is most likely? Do some experiments, study more. Keep looking. Keep learning.

Scientists believe in evolution because it is the most logical explanation. There are fossils that prove species evolve.

But the question is, basically, what starts life? Moreover, what is the meaning of life?

We don't know. Not yet. We might never know... but that doesn't mean that I should live my life according to an ancient book with more holes in it than swiss cheese. That doesn't mean I should believe in and worship a deity that has the ability to watch, observe and stop suffering but chooses not to. That doesn't mean the answer is God.

Instead of drawing that conclusion, I plan on keeping an open mind and looking for real evidence. Not warm fuzzies that have been known to lie, not people who try to scare me into conforming to their beliefs even though they are sexist and homophobic.

This guy's video is full of eye-roll inducing moments, and it gave me a good laugh. I love the way he looked into the camera as if he were trying to show you God's love through the pleading in his eyes. His arguments are not logical, though. As a matter of fact, they are kind of funny (to me, anyway).

Andee

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By Laura Crimaldi and Laurel J. Sweet

Taunton Mayor Charles Crowley called School Superintendent Julie Hackett from his vacation today and asked her to apologize both privately and publicly to the family of an 8-year-old special needs student sent home from school and ordered to undergo psychological testing after drawing a stick-figure picture of Jesus Christ nailed to the cross.

“Mayor Crowley’s sentiments were that he would hope Dr. Hackett would meet with the family today, apologize, make a public apology on behalf of the school department, pay for the psychiatrist and come up with a policy to make sure this never happens in our school system again,” said Crowley’s assistant Todd Castro.

...

The Lowell M. Maxham Elementary School second-grader was booted from the school on Dec. 2 when school officials feared his artwork - drawn to depict what he did on his Thanksgiving break - might be exposing violent tendencies. The child was allowed to return on Dec. 7 after a two-day risk assessment by psychiatrist Helene Titelbaum determined there was nothing wrong with him.

“(The boy) does not appear to be a threat to himself or others at this time. Therefore, I recommend that he return to school as soon as possible,” Titelbaum concluded in her report, a copy of which was obtained by the Herald.

The boy’s father, Chester Johnson, 40, a part-time maintenance worker for the Taunton School Department, told the Herald his son drew Jesus after visiting the National Shrine of Our Lady of La Salette in Attelboro to see its Christmas display. He then put his own name on the cross instead of Jesus.

...

“My intention is to shed light on what is happening to children in schools because of zero tolerance,” she said. “I’m sure they expected Santa Claus or a reindeer, but that’s not where this child’s mind was.”

Johnson, she said, ”just wants to get his son out of the school. His son is really traumatized from this event.

“This is one of those ‘How is this possible?’ scenarios,” she said. “We live in a society where we’re supposed to honor children and their imagination.”

In June 2008, a Taunton fifth-grade student was suspended for a day for a stick figure drawing that appeared to depict him shooting his teacher and a classmate.

Okay, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that I have something to say about this...

This little boy was drawing a photo about what he did over the Thanksgiving holiday? I am guessing (and hoping) that his family didn't go out and crucify one of their atheist neighbors as a human sacrifice to Jesus. This is clearly someone freaking out over something silly. The kid went to church, saw Jesus on the cross at some point, and then drew the damn picture. I don't see how it got to the point that he was removed from the school and asked to have a mental evaluation.

The school handled this poorly, to say the least.

Now, onto the bigger issue.

Religion and kids.

Is it fair to raise your child telling them that they already belong to the right religion and that everyone else is wrong?

Do kids really need to walk into a church and see a statue of a man being crucified? It's kind of sadistic if you ask me. Something I wouldn't really want young kids to see...

If a Catholic took their son to a movie where there was a bloody violent scene of a man being killed and left to die while people were cheering and chanting, they would be upset that their child was subjected to that. Wouldn't they? Yet they don't see the same thing in their churches. I am not trying to pick on Catholics, I think all religions are crap.

This is a big issue to me, because if there was one thing I hated about being a Mormon, it was when the mothers would escort their three, four or five year olds to the microphone on fast Sunday and whisper into their ears what to say.

Ever really listen to the words people say? It's the same thing. Verbatim.

I would like to bear my testimony and I know this church is true. I love my mother and father and my sisters and brothers. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that Thomas Monson is our living prophet today. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

These are little kids. They don't know what a testimony is. They don't understand the concept of God, heaven, hell and all the severe punishments for not doing what the church tells them. They can't read the Book of Mormon to know that it's true. They are only doing what they are told to do, instructed to do.

It's really unfair to do this to kids. It limits them and closes them off to other possibilities. If their religion is all they know, do they really have the chance to make their own religious choices?

When I was a kid, everyone in my life told me Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Book of Mormon was true, and that I must have been a wonderful spirit in the pre-existance because I was lucky enough to be born into the one true church. When I made friends with people in other religions as a child, I was sad that they wouldn't be going to heaven like I was. Isn't that sad? Should little kids have to worry and think about stuff like that?

I just wish religion was something you could pick up when you become a certain age (if you want to). Kind of like cigarettes. If you are old enough to smoke and make an unhealthy decision for your body, you are old enough to go into a religion and make an unhealthy decision for your mental and emotional well being.

Most of the people born into a religion stay there for the rest of their lives. It's pretty rare for people to convert from one religion to another. It's even more rare for someone to do it and not have it be because they want to marry a person of another faith.

Yeah, the school failed here. The little boy didn't do anything wrong. I just think it's a sad display when kids are filled with religion so early... before they can really grasp what people are talking about.

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Know something that has always made me chuckle?

Fasting.

Does your God hear prayers better when people pray on an empty stomach?

Do tummy rumblings make your God smile?

Does your God sit back and say, "Well, I will grant you this prayer... you *are* hungry."

When I would ask my grandpa why he was fasting he would tell me that the money he would have used for food on that specific day would be given as an offering to the church for people in the ward. I asked him many times why he needed to starve himself and donate the money, and to be honest I don't recall what his reply was.

I mean, if you want to donate even more money to the church (besides tithing) then go for it. Whatever. They don't need it, but whatever floats your boat... My point is that there is no need to starve yourself on top of making that donation. What is the purpose? To suffer a little?

Personally, I don't think it's by chance that testimony meetings take place at times when you are fasting. When you are without food, your body isn't functioning normally. You become more emotional, and it's easy for people to get you to agree with the words coming out of their mouths.

Religious cults use fasting all the time. It's a common way for the leaders to gain more mental control over the people in the group.

I remember sitting in testimony meetings. I was starving. You know when you are so hungry that you feel a little sick to your stomach? Thats how I would feel. Icky. One minute I would be daydreaming about a cheese-lover's pizza hut pizza and the next the thought of eating something grossed me out completely. It can't be healthy.

Person after person would get up to share their testimony that Joe was a good guy and that they would be lost without the gospel and I wanted to scream, "Shut up! I need food! Let's end this nightmare!"

It makes no sense at all.

If you want to make your God happy, wouldn't He be happier if you spent more time volunteering than spending so many hours on a church pew? Couldn't you approach this in a way that actually makes a difference to someone?

What good does fasting do?

Andee

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Seth and I have been debating the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith recently, and this is my reply to his latest thoughts on the matter. As always, Seth's quotes will be in quotes and italicized and quotes from other sources will be in quotes and bolded. Hope that helps everyone out figuring out who said what. I will jump in when I feel like it.

OK, I finally got a bit of free time, so time to get off my butt and get moving on this.

Before I start in on the substance of the court proceedings, I think the quote from Hugh Nibley needs to be addressed, since it kind of frames this whole issue and clarifies what exactly is at stake here. Here's the quote as you are using it in your post:

"if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith." Hugh Nibley, "The Myth Makers" pg. 246.

Andee, when I first heard this quote from Nibley, it left me scratching my head for a couple reasons.

First, because it seemed so incongruous with other stuff I had read from Hugh Nibley on Joseph Smith.

It just seemed obvious to me that Nibley's testimony of Joseph Smith was a bit deeper than the result of a single court case. His case for Joseph seemed to be built on so much more. For him to state that it would all be nullified by a single court case seemed extremely careless to me.

Secondly, it made no logical sense.

Why would a single court case have the ability to nullify all of Joseph Smith's prophetic claims? Why would the truth of Joseph's message be dependent on a backwoods New York judge? Even if Joseph Smith was guilty, it seemed obvious to me that this would not be remotely sufficient to discredit him as a prophet.

So why would Nibley, in essence, admit that a single conviction would be the "most damning" piece of evidence against Joseph Smith when it clearly couldn't be of such importance?

Seth, I don't really think it matters what Nibley said. His thoughts/opinions on the matter don't change the historical evidence or fact that Joseph Smith was indeed charged and found guilty of fraud using the exact same seer stone he used to "translate" the Book of Mormon. The quote was pretty much an afterthought to my original post. It's not going to change anything.

The reason this is important, as I have mentioned before, is because it shows he wasn't the honorable man the church likes to paint him to be.

Also, I find it funny that you don't think this is "logical" when you are so willing to place belief in things that are a HELL of a lot less logical than this! Look at the seer stone alone! Is that logical? Is anything about the Book of Mormon or the stories in it "logical?" Is it logical that God would choose a man who was convicted of fraud to restore a church on earth?

No.

Far from it.

If God existed, he would be smarter than that. At least... I hope so.

Well, as it so happens, Nibley didn't claim that.

The book that provides the limited quote that you used above Andee is, as we've seen in so many anti-Mormon works, yet another example of a critic deliberately taking a small portion of a quote out of context and in isolation to make someone say something they weren't actually claiming.

Here is the actual FULL quote from Hugh Nibley:

"You knew its immense value as a weapon against Joseph Smith if its authenticity could be established. And the only way to establish authenticity was to get hold of the record book from which the pages had been purportedly torn. After all, you had only Miss Pearsall's word for it that the book ever existed. Why didn't you immediately send he back to find the book or make every effort to get hold of I? Why didn't you "unearth" it, as they later said you did? . . . The authenticity of the record still rests entirely on the confidential testimony of Miss Pearsall to the Bishop. And who was Miss Pearsall? A zealous old maid, apparently: "a woman helper in our mission," who lived right in the Tuttle home and would do anything to assist her superior. The picture I get is that of a gossipy old housekeeper. If this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith. Why, then, [speaking to Tuttle] was it not republished in your article in the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge after 1891? . . . in 1906 Bishop Tuttle published his Reminiscences of a Missionary Bishop in which he blasts the Mormons as hotly as ever. . . yet in the final summary of his life's experiences he never mentions the story of the court record - his one claim to immortal fame and the gratitude of the human race if it were true!"

(Nibley "The Myth Makers", 246)

When Nibley wrote his quotes he was under the impression that the court records would never be found. He was wrong. They were.

Joseph Smith was indeed found guilty of fraud by charging people money to find buried treasures on their farm land with his magical seer stone. Nibley's opinion on the matter doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith was guilty of fraud. Nibley simply didn't see it coming, and neither did the other church apologists. You can't argue with the proof. It happened.

Not only did it happen, the church now knows it and chooses to keep this from the members and investigators of the church. This is dishonest and fraudulent in the opinions of others. In order for someone to make a "logical" decision about what to put their faith in, they need to have all the facts. The church consistently keeps those facts out of reach of the faithful and promises them than anything negative about the church is coming directly from the devil. This is a LIE. A Lie lie lie. We are not talking about theories, we are talking about facts that be proven! Is this something a true church would do? Nope.

In the court record Joseph Smith confessed that "for three years" prior to 1826 he had used a magic stone placed in his hat to find treasures or lost property, placing his money-digging activities from 1823 to 1826. Mormon histories indicate that a heavenly messenger revealed the presence of gold plates on September 21, 1823. Joseph Smith was conning overly optimistic treasure seekers out of their money at the very time he claimed that an angel revealed to him that gold plates lay buried near his home. He continued these deceptive practices for at least three of the four years after God was supposedly preparing him to receive the gold plates. These facts undermine the credibility of Mormonism's first prophet and founder. (Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, Signature Books, 2004, pp. 80-86)

Do you understand that at the very time he was supposedly chosen by God to restore his church he was in the middle of conning people out of their money? Is that something a true prophet would even consider? Wouldn't that piss God off?

It would.

God wouldn't have chosen a con man and a liar to be a prophet because he wasn't trustworthy.

I also find it telling that the church isn't honest to it's members and investigators about this particular event. They don't talk about it and pretend it never happened so people don't start thinking. In Mormonism (as well as other religions), thinking is bad. Once you start being logical and using your common sense you see all the little signs and evidences that it's a bunch of hogwash.

I know that's a long quote, but you need to read it carefully.

What Nibley is doing here is basically taunting Episcopalian Bishop Daniel S. Tuttle for not actually using the trial record that he had. He was questioning why he would do that if it was so important.

Basically, his statement about it being "damning" was merely said in a mocking tone, and referred only to the specific argument Tuttle was trying to make. Basically, this isn't even close to an admission by Nibley that a conviction would be sufficient to discredit Joseph Smith.

All it is, is an apologist having some fun at the expense of an anti-Mormon writer who had not yet produced the documents he was boasting of.

So let me be clear here Andee. The result of this limited debate topic does not prove anything about Joseph Smith one way or the other.

Wrong.

It proves that Joseph Smith was guilty of being a fraud. That shows the true character of the man who was caught in more lies and half-truths than most Mormons even dream about.

The charge that Joseph was known to hunt treasure with 'peep' or 'seer' stones, etc., was serious enough that Mormon scholar Francis W. Kirkham stated that if the court record could be found, it would show that the Mormon Church was false: "'Careful study of all facts regarding this alleged confession of Joseph Smith in a court of law that he had used a seer stone to find hidden treasure for purposes of fraud, must come to the conclusion that no such record was ever made, and therefore, is not in existence . . . "'If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have organized the restored Church.' "Later, in the same book, Mr. Kirkham states: "'. . . [I]f a court record could be identified, and if it contained a confession by Joseph Smith which revealed him to be a poor, ignorant, deluded, and superstitious person unable himself to write a book of any consequence, and whose Church could not endure because it attracted only similar persons of low mentality if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him. . . . How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been superstitious fraud which the pages from a book declared he confessed to be? . . . ' "Well, in spite of 140 years of silence, the records did surface. Rev. Wesley Walters discovered the documents in the basement of the Chenango County, New York, jailhouse at Norwich, N.Y. in 1971. The records, affidavits, and other data show conclusively that Joseph Smith was arrested, went to trial, was found guilty as an imposter in the Stowell matter of "glass-looking." It is not a matter of debate, opinion or religious preference. It is a proven historical fact.

"Initially Mormons denied that Joseph ever participated in 'money-digging' activities, saying that would invalidate his claim as a prophet. Now that indisputable evidence confirms that Joseph was a convicted 'money- digger' Mormons have taken a 'so what' attitude. At least one says, now that the evidence proves that Joseph was a 'money-digger' that it really doesn’t matter. (What could a BYU professor say?) Mormon scholar Marvin Hill says:

"'There may be little doubt now, as I have indicated elsewhere, that Joseph Smith was brought to trial in 1826 on a charge, not exactly clear, associated with money digging.' [Fawn] Brodie’s thesis that the prophet grew from necromancer to prophet assumes that the two were mutually exclusive, that if Smith were a money-digger he could not have been religiously sincere.

'This does not necessarily follow. Many believers active in their churches, were money-diggers in New England and western New York in this period. Few contemporaries regard these money-diggers as irreligious, only implying so if their religious views seemed too radical . . . For the historian interested in Joseph Smith the man, it does not seem incongruous for him to have hunted for treasure with a seer stone and then to use with full faith to receive revelations from the Lord.'

So, if we are being "logical" we would note that God chose someone who is a convicted fraud to dig up golden plates and translate them with the same seer stone he used to break the law? Quite a leap if you ask me. Not very logical at all.

In fact, Joseph could have been totally making up his spiritual gifts with Josiah Stowell, and still have had a turnaround in his life such that his work on the Book of Mormon was 100% bona fide.

Not that I'm claiming that you are putting all your eggs in this one basket.

You have a lot of reasons for rejecting the LDS Church, this being only one of them.

I'm certain that even if you have to admit that I'm right at the end of this debate topic, it will not have too huge of an impact on your overall conviction of Mormonism being false.

Just realize that the same is true for me. Losing this particular debate won't change much in my mind either about the overall claims of Mormonism.

One final housekeeping issue.

I would ask that we keep the Nauvoo Expositor and any other specific incidents you think invalidate Joseph's overall character out of this limited debate. We are here to discuss his seerstone activities and that alone. I can go back to your earlier post and leave something on the Expositor later. With that out of the way, on to the rest of the article.

So, are you admitting that you were wrong and that Joseph Smith was indeed found guilty of fraud? It seemed in our last conversation you didn't believe he was proven to be found guilty and that there was no evidence whatsoever of this.

We agree then, that he was found guilty of fraud?

Why do you want to keep the Nauvoo Expositor and any other specific incidents out of it? I don't understand the reason you would like to do that? Those are more examples of Joseph Smith lying, conning and manipulating people into doing things they normally wouldn't do.

He *could* have had a turn-around, but due to the historical evidence that Joseph was caught in one lie after another I would have to say that isn't likely. At all. As a matter of fact, it is my belief that the church started as an afterthought. I believe Joseph wanted to create the Book of Mormon and the magical story behind it because he wanted to sell the copyright and make money. It was only after he realized that his status as a "prophet" could gain him money, power and any woman he could get his hands on that he went further with the con.


I don't think this is about the seer stone abilities alone. It is my opinion that this debate is about Joseph's trustworthiness. Why he shouldn't be trusted as he is. Why people should know the entire story about the church instead of what the leaders of the church choose to tell them.

Even more evidence that the whole thing is a con is how the Book of Mormon itself is plagiarized and full of historical inaccuracies. Steel? Chariots? Barley? They didn't exist in America at the time the Book of Mormon supposedly took place. This means nothing to you? Why not?

I have a question for you...

When you learned of the way the Book of Mormon was translated (by seer stone) were you surprised? Were you taught that when you were first learning about the church from your local leaders and church texts? Were you shown paintings and drawings of how things REALLY happened? I am willing to say no. You were not. Why is that? Why is it that they are so afraid to be honest about the truth? Because they know people will come to their senses. That's why.

I don't understand how you can put your trust in a man who was found to be lying so many times?

If you bought a used car from someone and it turned out to be a piece of crap, would you go back to him and buy another car? Would you take their word for it that the engine was rebuilt, the car was being maintained and only driven by an old lady on Sundays to church? Would you trust the company that owned the car lot and employed the salesman when they told you to ignore the things other people say about them because they are all lies?

This isn't much different than that.

You are putting your trust into Joseph Smith and the corporation that wants you to keep trusting him. "Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. Read what we tell you to read, believe what we tell you to believe, and give us 10% of your money."



Again, if we are being "logical" about this we would look at the evidence and see it for what it is. Another fraud by Joseph Smith.

The Bible (which I believe to be another work of fiction, but for the sake of argument) says this is how you can determine a true prophet:

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. -Deuteronomy 18:22

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. -Deuteronomy 13:1-3

Lets take a look at some of the prophecies Joseph gave to determine if he was a true prophet:

1. The Lamanites would be converted and their skin would become "white and delightsome." This was of course changed later to a more politically correct statement of "pure and delightsome." Was the original translation wrong or was the church pressured to change things to make themselves look more accepting to blacks? Doesn't change the fact that the prophecy is 100% wrong. The color of one's skin doesn't change in relation to the church they belong to or the beliefs they hold. This is bullshit. Racist bullshit. Plain and simple.

2. The copyright of the Book of Mormon was to be sold in Toronto, Canada. Joseph Smith sent Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Toronto, Canada, to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon in response to the following revelation that he claimed to have received from God through his “seer stone.” Looks like the seer stone was once again not working as it should have been. Maybe Joseph just wanted to marry their wives while they were away, huh? He's a prince like that.

3. New York, Albany and Boston would be destroyed if they didn't accept the Mormon gospel. Section 84:114 –115, Doctrine & Covenants, “Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832”:


4. Saints who kept the word of wisdom were promised health, strength, wisdom and knowledge. The fact is, many Mormons who obey the Word of Wisdom to the letter have ill health and the destroying angel does not pass them by. Mormons die like any other people-group. We think of the many Mormons in and around Saint George, Utah, who died of the effects of the radioactive fallout from the nuclear tests in Nevada. Why didn’t the destroying angel pass them by?

5. Christ was to return by Feb. 14, 1891.

History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 182, February 14, 1835:

“President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by visions and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings: and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.”

Jesus Christ should have returned by February 14, 1891.

6. The failure of Joseph Smith's anti-bank:

“On the 2nd of November the brethren at Kirtland drew up certain articles of agreement, preparatory to the organization of a banking institution, to be called the ‘Kirtland Safety Society.’ ” History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 467, November 2, 1836

When the articles of agreement were adopted, this institution was officially named the “Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company.” Ibid. p. 471, January 2, 1837

Joseph Smith stated, “It is wisdom and according to the mind of the Holy Spirit, that you should call at Kirtland [Ohio], and receive counsel and instruction upon those principles that are necessary to further the great work of the Lord, and to establish the children of the kingdom, according to the oracles of God; as they are had among us: and further, we invite the brethren from abroad, to call on us, and take stock in our Safety Society; and we would remind them also of the sayings of Isaiah, contained in the 60th chapter and more particularly the 9th and 17th verses,…Also 62nd chapter, 1st verse…” Ibid. p.473.

Warren Parrish, cashier at the bank and a confidant of Joseph Smith stated, “I have listened to [Joseph Smith] with feelings of no ordinary kind, when he declared that the audible voice of God, instructed him to establish a banking-anti banking institution, who like Aaron’s rod shall swallow up all other banks (the Bank of Monroe excepted,) and grow and flourish, and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins.” Plainsville Republican, February 22, 1838, as quoted in Conflict at Kirtland, p. 297, by LDS writer Max Parkin.

The anti-bank officially failed in the summer of 1837. Joseph Smith recorded, “…I resigned my office in the ‘Kirtland Safety Society,’ disposed of my interest therein, and withdrew from the institution; being fully aware, after so long an experiment, that no institution of the kind, established upon just and righteous principles for a blessing not only to the Church but the whole nation, would be suffered to continue its operations in such an age of darkness, speculation and wickedness.” History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 497, July 7, 1837.

7. The inhabitants of the moon and the sun: Oliver B. Huntington Journal, 1837, Book 14. Original at Huntington Library, San Marino, California. Also found in The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’ Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264.

“Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; comeing (sic) generally, near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could “See” whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

“As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do, that they live generally to near the age of a 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style....”

The evidence is conclusive that Joseph Smith said it. Brigham Young confirmed it on July 24, 1870:

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271).

On July 20, 1969 man set foot on the moon, and there was no trace of any beings ever having been there before.

These are just 7 of the 50 prophicies Joseph Smith gave that were 100% false. How can you believe a prophet of God could be wrong so many times?

Joseph Smith wasn't trustworthy, and neither is the church that continues to cover up all of the wrong things he did during his life. This goes for many other prophets and church leaders as well.

You are more than correct by stating that this is just one of hundreds of reasons the Mormon Church isn't true in my eyes. I would love to debate them all with you if you are up to it.

How about the next topic being about discrimination? Blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, homosexuality and proposition 8. Are you up for it? Why would God (again, not that there is one) want the people in his one true church to be so ugly and disrespectful to certain groups of people? Why would he do something so wrong? Is it because God is an asshole? Is it because God is a racist, sexist and homophobic?

Till next time...

Andee

P.S. I will fix the word limit in my comments for ya. Didn't even think about that!

P.P.S. I can't figure out how to do that. I have been looking at the settings on the blog for a while now and I can't seem to find the option. I might not be able to change the word limit :( Bummer.

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