Windy Sydney

Those who leave the Mormon church and have huge families within it have usually dealt with manipulation by leaders, friends and family members. Sometimes these people don't even realize they are using manipulation techniques to get their sinful, evil, non-tithing paying people back into the church, they are only focused on the end result... making sure everyone is on the straight and narrow.

Some stories of manipulation are kind of funny... take my case in high school for instance...

I had stopped attending church because I thought it was sexist. I couldn't take anymore girl's activities that included quilting, baking, sewing and crafting while the guys got to do things like repelling and playing ball. It was more that that, though. Our lessons consisted of telling us that we should marry a return missionary in the temple, have tons of babies and be faithful our entire lives. When I asked about a career (wanted to be a doctor at the time) I was told to pray about it, and if God wanted me to be a doctor, I shouldn't wait to get married and have kids... because yeah... med school is so easy with a newborn and toddler in the house?

Anyway, when I stopped attending I had a YW leader that took me on as a personal project. I wasn't exactly little miss popular in my tiny school, but I had tons of friends... most of them were non-Mormons. Suddenly, a couple really popular Mormon girls kept asking me to hang out with them... they acted as if we were best buddies and they couldn't wait to get together for this or that. I usually politely declined because I saw it for what it was... they really didn't care about *me* they just wanted my happy ass back in church every Sunday to hear their message.

Now, whats so bad about that? Right? A couple kids pretending to give a shit about your life and constantly (and I mean CONSTANTLY) requesting your presence in church activities and Sunday school?

It wasn't genuine.

I wanted a genuine life and genuine friends... not people who would like me as long as I did what they wanted me to do. A lifetime of fakery? No thanks.

It could have been much worse.

The other half of the manipulation stories are sometimes incredibly hard to read. Some faithful Mormons will do anything -ANYTHING- to keep their friends and family right where they want them. Regardless of that person's beliefs, thoughts, dreams and goals in life.

Some of these examples I found online in various ex-Mormon forums. I took out the names and usernames of the people who listed them, in case they don't want their information on my blog.

I just talked to my TBM Dad. He and my Mom are visiting next weekend for the first time in three years. They live 8 hours away. We've visited them several times since then and bought a new house last year. They didn't visit us then either. My Mom is retired and my Dad has 5 weeks of vacation plus government holidays. They aren't bedridden or in jail either.

Recently, they started making rumblings that they actually might visit us. My wife made the prediction that they would come late on a Saturday night so they can stay with us for free on the way to something else, go to church here, and leave immediately after Sacrament meeting.

Well, give the lady a prize! This morning, my Dad IM'd me and said that they are driving out to "Firth," Idaho (wherever in God's creation that is) to pick up an old truck that he bought off the Internet. They'll be here Saturday night, stay the night, and then leave immediately after Sacrament meeting. And he wants me to call around and find out when the earliest service is, so they can be on their way as soon as possible. Apparently because his fingers are broken and he can't look it up on mormon.org himself.

I was SO offended! They go to church every week, and they can't miss even this one time to spend 70 minutes with us. It's nice knowing where you fit in the overall scheme of things with your own parents. (1. Cult, 2. Kids.) I called [her] and told her about it, and she absolutely blew her top. She said that they should not even bother stopping by. And if they do, they can pay a normal motel rate.

You see... the church means more to these parents than their family does. The church claims to be family first -unless that family isn't what you are- a faithful member of the LDS Church.

The reason I believe this is manipulation is because the parents have been manipulated into thinking they are doing the right thing by putting the church first. Is this fair to them? The actual members of the church who pay their dues and attend the millions of meetings every month? Is it fair to their grandkids who will only know that the church meant more to their grandpa and grandma than they did?

I particularly loathe the "hey buddy" shoulder/back affection, where the garment inspector pats you on the shoulder, or goes for an arm-over-the-shoulder manuever to see if he can feel garment seams. It's spooky, and just plain *wrong*.

Is this manipulation?

Yes!

You see, the member that checks for garments isn't only doing just that... nope. He's keeping the other person in check. He's basically saying, "Gee, you don't have garments on... hmmm... what kind of sin have you committed? Why aren't you wearing them? I'll pray for you and tell everyone I know to do the same."

In my humble opinion, they are trying to use guilt and shame to get the ex-member back into a church pew on Sunday.

I will leave you with this list of quotes that TBM friends and family members said to one couple as they were leaving the church. It's amazing.

Mother1: "I can't believe how bad you turned out."

Mother2: "Shame on you! You should know better than that!"

Brother: "Don't try explaining, there's no excuse for leaving and you'll never convince me."

Brother in Law1: "You bastard. You've deceived our sister with your anti-mormon lies."

Brother in Law2: "I can't believe how stupid you are."

Sister in Law1: "I pray you come back before God punishes you."

Sister in Law2: "How can you betray your family like this?"

Father in Law: "Well, I don't know if the church is true or not, but I have a lot of friends there."

Mother in Law: "So what commandment couldn't you live?"

Missionary after I closed the door: "You still know it's true!"

TBM Friend: "I'm so dissapointed in you. What's wrong with you?"

TBM Friend: "I don't believe any of those anti-mormon lies. The Book of Mormon is true and that makes the church true - don't make excuses."

TBM Friend: "Well, I've had too many spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon to ever deny it."

TBM Friend: "When things get really hard in your life, you'll come back. I hope it doesn't take a tragedy to get you to repent."

When I originally posted this message, I got a lot of responses. Here's a collection of what other people heard from their TBM friends and relatives:

"I have heard you criticize and find fault with the Church so you can justify your decision to leave and this makes me very sad."

"What happened? I am disappointed in you!!"

"I hoped that by experiencing other Christian beliefs you would seek to gain a stronger testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ like I had done."

"My testimony of the Gospel has been challenged more than you will ever know, and I have stayed true to faith."

"I am deeply saddened that you have caved to the beliefs of man."

"You can go to some feel good Christian church as long as you want, but this church will never provide you with blessings of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ"

"You have no clue how much you have hurt mom/dad with your decision to leave the Church. How can you throw away everything she/he taught you like this?"

"Did you ever think just once what impact your decision would have upon ______?"

"I do not know about you, but I am choosing to Honor My Parents by staying true to the principles of Gospel Of Jesus Christ that we were taught as youth."

"How can you throw your missions away like this?"

"You may betray the truth but I will not."

"I hope you get your act together before your youngest child turns 8, as it would be a real shame for your children to grow up without the light of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in their lives."

"I would gladly come and baptize ______ if _______ was given the opportunity to learn about the Church. I have seen a change for the worse in _____ countenance and this is really upsetting to me."

"It is clear that you blame the Church for much of your problems and you figure that by running away from the Church your problems will go away!! They may go away for a little while but they will be back. The easy way out is just that - the easy way out."

"I was pretty shocked when we visited you and when we said we were going to the Temple and I asked if you had seen it yet you said no."

"You now know how I feel. I will not say what I have just said again. You will be very upset with me with for the things I have just said! They are the truth and sometimes the truth hurts."

"You will probably find fault with me for telling you how it is."

"Those Mormons really attack you when you leave the church..etc...etc....blah, blah, blah." Get over it."

"Please do not try to explain to me why you left the Church, because there is no good reason to leave."

"You can call it the "Mormon Belief System," "Mormonism," or whatever you like. I will tell you what it is: It is The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ!"

"You used to have such a SWEET spirit."

"How can you forget all the Lord has blessed you with?"

"You know what I pray for? That you'll come back to the Church."

"Your leaving the church has strenghthened our testimonies."

"If you don't have what it takes to live the Gospel, you should at least take your daughter to Church so that she can know the truth. She shouldn't suffer for your sake."

"Have your husband reread section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, because the sin on his head for leaving the Church as a priesthood holder is greater."

"Can we still send the HT and VT to your home?"

"What are you going to do someday when you are dead and standing before the Lord and he asks: "Why did you persecute my Church?""

"This is the worst possible thing you could have done."

"But, if it weren't for the church, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN BORN!"

"I read all the anti-mormon literature too, and came to the opposite conclusion as you. I know obedience to authority is a key part of God's plan."

"That's not what the Church teaches!"

Stake President: (Hand raised to the square) "I declare in the name of Jesus Christ that this church is true."

Bishop: "When I find myself out of synch with the prophet, it means I have to change."

"Remember the warning, "Why do the women have to veil their faces during the "true order" of prayer, while the men do not? Aren't the symbolic and theological implications of this huge -- suggesting that women have a less direct link to the Mormon god than men do?'God will NOT be mocked'?"

"Your (deceased) mother/father would be so dissappointed that you are not raising your children in the church."

"You'll come back after you know what it feels like without the spirit"

"You knew it was true! You said it many times, so don't deny your testimony now."

"I have seen a decline in your general character."

"You've lost the light of Christ"

"You're so much angrier now that you want to leave the church"

"You're going to perdition because you had a full knowledge of the gospel and you're rejecting it."

"I hope I'll be allowed to come down and see you after we die."

"We believe in eternal families...that is what grandpa taught."

"I hope you rot in your lonely miserable apartment!"

"You know what you are doing is wrong!"

"But you've been through the temple!"

"So, are you going to start drinking?"

"If you don't believe it anymore then you have no business talking about it."

"I'll pray for you and hope you'll do the same for me."

"You're just pretending not to believe so that you can sin."

"Look in the mirror - can't you see how ugly you are?"

"Something terrible must have happened on your mission."

"You're like a fish in the ocean who sticks his head up and say "Where's all the water?" You've been surrounded by the Spirit your whole life. You just don't recognize it."

"You were a valiant spirit in the pre-existence. Satan knows that. So he's fighting especially hard to get your soul.

"It's so sad to see your children growing up without the Church."

"I wish I cold come back when I die and tell you the truth, but I don't think it works that way."

"You realize of course that there won't be a place for you at Jesus' table?"

"There won't be any oil in YOUR lamp, when the time comes!"

"I'm sure that those who leave the church won't become sons of perdition because they didn't really understand the gospel. Anyone who really understood would never deny it."

Andee

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Grandpa Heston really got me all worked up with his comments.

Now I find myself wondering if people like that purposefully antagonize ex-Mormons.

I know some probably do it because they like to argue or debate the topics at hand, but the more I think about it, the more I think Grandpa Heston wanted me freak out. Again, not all apologists do this, I am not making a blanket statement about all religious people.

Not all Mormons want to poke at you or make snide comments designed to grab the other persons emotions. Believe it or not, it was the freaking coffee comment he made. It's no secret that Mormons are taught to assume people leave the church because they want to sin, they are possessed by Satan himself, or do things like drink coffee. I remember a lesson about apostacy. My leader was very clear to us (I think I must have been 9 or 10) that we should never "harden our hearts." That phrase is used so often that it has lost all meaning).

It's funny how most of the arguments are just automatic responses. Kind of like how cult leaders make "thought stopping" phrases. I bet you that Gramps didn't even read the entire article he commented on, he just went into autopilot and repeated what he has heard. Did he take the time to think about his response first? Consider that my points are valid? Don't think so. He chose to make digs at my character instead of focusing facts and having what could have been an interesting conversation with a believer.

Heston, people are not going to listen to your arguments if you come across as an egotistical know-it-all douche. You can do better.

He bugged me because he was commenting like an arrogant jerk. The snide comments about coffee and not posting the Brigham Young quotes he would have wanted (seriously, what am I supposed to do? Call this asshole up on the phone and ask his permission to say what is on my mind? Yeah, he would have to be my publisher/editor. Ridiculous much?

Kind of rambled, but oh well... hahaha...

Andee

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Time for another trip into the WindySydney mail bag!

A man by the username Grandpa Heston left me a couple comments that I want to reply to. Grandpa Heston's comments will be in quote blocks and italicized and my responses will be in bold letters to help keep things easier to read/understand.

Lets get started...

Your comments are interesting to me. Being obedient means that we subject our will to the Father in Heaven. No one should blindly follow the prophet or anyone else in the flesh. As for me I pray (as you said the only way that you would be obedient is if God told you himself)for an answer from God. He either confirms to me or not that what is said by anyone is from Him. So far the score is: 100% right for the prophets teaching me. For others that I trust enough to pray about the record is less favorable. YOu ought to try it with a sincere heart and see what you find.

Your comments are interesting to me, as well. I am especially interested in the comment you made about being obedient to our father in heaven and not blindly follow the prophet. First of all, there is zero proof there is a father in heaven, a space-daddy, a super fantastic club we get to hang out in after we die.

Who is it you want me to be obedient to? Because here is the thing... all scriptures are man made. The bible says shellfish is an abomination, sell your daughters into slavery... the list is endless. Should I be obedient to that God? Why or why not?

Have you ever played the telephone game? Someone whispers something in a friends ear and they keep passing the same message around the room? This is kind of how I see the bible and other religious texts. These are not God's words. These are words that men claim are God's words. So, if I am to be obedient to the God of the bible, I need to do some of these things:

-Abandon boys who are uncircumcised. Genesis 17:14

-Incest is best. Moses was the product of an incestuous marriage. Exodus 6:20

-God says it's okay for slave owners to split up slave families. Exodus 21:4

-If you "entice" an "unmarried maid" to "lie" with you, then you must marry her, unless the father refuses to give her to you, in which case you must pay him the going price for virgins. Exodus 21:16-17

-God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Believe me when I say I could go on and on. I have before. Many times. I need to obey a God that would do those horrific things? Interesting. Sorry, can't do it.

If there is a God, and He wants me to be obedient to him, then He needs to make his presence known. Mormons believe the prophets are communicating with God, and therefore they have more answers to things than other regular church members. The only way I would know what God wants from me is to what? Read scriptures that can't be trusted completely, and ...listen to and obey the prophet.

I didn't necessarily appreciate the Brigham quote. He had a great many things that he said. This is one small one that detractors use. How about quoting the rest that read a more favorably?

Oh, what quotes would thou like me to share?

There are great things?

Really?

How about his teachings that Adam was God, that there were Quaker-like men living on the moon, that anyone bearing children with someone with dark skin should be put to death immediately to save his soul?

Brigham Young had an ego the size of Texas, and by reading my copy of the Journal of Discourses I learned a lot about him. He treated women like property, he took anything he wanted, and he would publicly chastise people who openly challenged anything he said or did.

Next time I will check with you before quoting something a pretend prophet said as to not upset you. I am oh, so sorry.

Do you really think a true prophet would do the things he did?

Don't you think that if Brigham was really speaking and communicating with the Lord that God wouldn't have a few things to say about his sermons that the church now pretends don't exist? How about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? That was God's will?

Love you. Enjoy your coffee. I prayed about that too. Prophets were right. Coffee Bad! All it does is give you headaches when you don't have it and a lot of other little maladies like bad belly, the jitters etc. etc. Prayer is the soul's sincere desire. You enter Heaven through prayer.

Oh, I love the coffee dig.

Yes, I stopped going to church because I wanted to drink coffee.

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments ever proposed to me on this blog, and I have had some doozies.

You love me? Want to get married and have babies? I can cook. Only vegetarian, though... and I would like to get to know you a little better before agree to return to the church as one of your many polygamous wives that are promised to you in the afterlife. The Celestial Kingdom always sounded kind of moronic to me, as if women would be jumping at the chance to share a husband with other women and populate their own worlds with spirit children they had to carry. Sounds like hell, not heaven.

Your comment makes you seem arrogant and sarcastic. Very bad way to get people to listen to the points you are trying to make.

If prayer is the soul's sincere desire, then lets take a look at that...



How do you know anyone hears your prayers? How about instead of praying to your heavenly father for a week, you pray to a can of Spam:



The results would be the same. They would.

I forgot. I always ask this of those that have left the church. Why do you never comment on the things that you know that the church (its people) and their leaders do right? If you are truly the free thinker that you purport you are, why not put the good things that you left to balance out some of the junk that you feel is so wrong? But alas. that would require you to be honest wouldn't it?

There are many ex-Mormons reading this last paragraph, and I can garruntee that they are laughing as hard as I am.

What should I praise the church for?

I should praise the church because they go out of their way to limit the equal rights of fellow human beings who don't even belong to their church?

I should praise the church for not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood until they were forced to change that rule to keep their tax-exempt status?

I should praise the church for not giving equal rights to women?

I should praise the church for telling women that they needed to be in polygamous marriages in order to reach the celestial kingdom?

I should praise them for their dishonesty?

I should praise the church who spends millions and millions of dollars on temples, church buildings, and expensive high-rise condo complexes instead of putting that money to use in a more helpful way... like feeding the hungry... that sort of thing.

I should praise the church for not being honest to me when they taught me the stories about church history? The translation of the Book of Mormon is my favorite example...

I should praise them for these things?

I know that most of the people in the church are good people, and if you had taken any time whatsoever to read more than one article on this blog you would know that. My entire family is Mormon. I love them no matter what, even if they act like you and assume I left because I crave Starbucks.

What you don't seem to understand is that my points and concerns with the church are valid.

As for the last sentence you wrote, you are implying that I am being dishonest. If you want to make that claim, please be prepared to show evidence to prove I am lying or being dishonest in any way.

I take that for what it is, a dig, a jab, an internet "F-you!"

What you have done is use every single apologist tactic out there. Trivializing my concerns, claiming I am dishonest, and being an all-around jerk. If you want to really communicate with people honestly about their concerns over your church, try being a little more kind and understanding. You sure came off as a egotistical jerk who thinks he knows everything.

If I had a dollar for every time some jerk-wad called me a liar without offering any kind of example or evidence I would be living in my dream home, attending college full time, traveling the world, and donating to charities that show where their money goes. I would be wealthy beyond imagination, almost as wealthy as the Mormon church!

If you had read more than one lonely article on this blog, you would know that my concerns are not just with the Mormon Church. That just happens to be the religion I was born into. I believe all religion is more negative than positive. Look at what it has done to you!! I am sure that without religion you wouldn't be so quick to judge others.

If you excuse me, I have to go to the store and stock up on coffee beans.

Andee

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Check out this comment that was just left on my "God's Test?" post...

Listen, If you don't stop questioning god, or spreading the word that he does not exist, than you must have something you are scared about. Stop worshiping obama, and think real hard.

So, you came all the way to *my* blog to tell *me* what *I* should do and say? Who the hell do you think you are? A Christian? Typical. This is America. A free country where you can say what you want to say. It's called free speech. Did you learn about that in school like I did? Look into it, it's great. You also might want to look into the evidence for evolution. It might surprise you.

Last time I checked, there was zero proof of any God existing.

If you have PROOF then please reply with it. I am all ears. Go on now... what evidence is there that a creator exists at all? Looking forward to the reply.

Now, for the worshiping Obama thing?

I *don't* worship Obama. I do think he was the best of the candidates that ran in 2008 and I voted for him (proudly). I don't agree with everything he has done in office, and I don't think it's possible for anyone to like EVERYTHING the President does or says. One thing I do know, is that he is a hell of a lot better at the job than George W. Bush. I do wish that Obama would do more about getting our troops out of war and more to save the environment.

Are you one of those nuts who thinks Obama is the anti-christ?

How about *you* think real hard. Get back to me.

Andee

P.S. Seth, if you read this I will be trying to reply to your comments tomorrow at some point. I have been kind of busy with my plans for world domination. ;)

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Seth,

It's been a few days since I replied to your comments about the trustworthiness of Joseph Smith and I listed the evidence that proves (to most people) that he was indeed convicted of fraud before starting the church.

Are you going to reply?

Looking forward to the friendly debate!

Andee

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Those who have been reading the blog a long time might remember a post I made in February of 2009 about two funny Book of Mormon reviews written on Amazon.com.

I found them hilarious and I remember laughing REALLY hard when I read them. It was funny, and most of the people who left comments and emailed me about that particular post really enjoyed it.

Well, for the past couple days I have been getting comments on the article from TBMs... the first comment is from a ten year old... or someone who CLAIMS to be a ten year old. There is no way of knowing who anyone is online, and I usually take comments written by children with a grain of salt. If a kid reads this website and gets upset, I do feel kind of bad... but that is free speech for you, isn't it? When I get comments like this I usually never respond because I don't want to antagonize a child. I don't want to hurt a child.

Anyway... here is what 10 year old (again, maybe) anonymous had to say:

Im only ten. I dont know everything (trust me i dont think i do...) But i do know is that while reading this, i could only get through the first couple of paragraphs, before i started crying. I felt like i wanted to vomit ( im not trying to sound mean or anything but thats the way i felt) after reading this. I was making a schedual of things i had to do before i went to bed and one is read the scriptures. I was look ing for pictures when i stumbled across this, i though it was a normal pic then doubble clicked and got this. It hurt. I dont know what made you drop out of the church but i guess you have your reasons. I know i wasnt forsed to read this so im not holding anything against you or anything im just stating what im feeling. When i was eight, well two years ago i mean, my dad died. My family, we were nothing. I could bacically hear my mothers heart ripping inside her chest and i didnt know what was going on, When we got the news i felt like crawling into a ball and dieing myself. But i had to stay strong for my mom, so i just went up into mmy room. I kept thinking why me? What could i have done to deserve this? But i pushed those thoughts aside and did the thing me and my dad loved doing the most, reading my new scriptures. (he died a couple moths afer he baptised me) And i didnt stop reading. even when i didnt understand it, i kept reading and, i felt the spirit so strong, i didnt even feel like crying, all i could do was smile. Cause i could feel my daddy right there next to me, hugging me. I havent missed a day reading the scriptures once since then. I think ive been the the strong one carrying my family ever since. I think i have a stronger testamonly then every teenager out there, because even though, reading things like this thingy you wrote, things like that, dont even phase me. So thank you for making me express my feelings and with your attemt to have me questoning, made me even closer with my Heavenly Father. Thank you and good luck with your life i hope it brings you happiness and love. C:

Dearest Anonymous,

I am sorry if a comedy bit written by two people (neither of which were me) about the Book of Mormon made you cry within the first couple of paragraphs and then you felt you wanted to vomit. I completely understand that feeling because thats how I felt after learning the truth about the church. It's not fun. It's not easy... but I am better off for it now.

So, you were making a list of the things you had to do before you went to bed and one of those things was read the scriptures? Cool. Go for it. Read, read and read again... just like I did. Nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, reading the Book of Mormon and really absorbing what is in it might really help you in the future one way or another.

I lost my Dad, too. It wasn't easy and I loved him very, very much. He was a good father and he taught me soooo much. I am sorry you lost your Dad, I really mean that.

If you take comfort in the Book of Mormon that is great. Some people take comfort in religion, some take comfort in remembering the person they lost, some people even take comfort in the thought that they have tons of wonderful memories with the person they lost.

Again, I didn't write these two funny reviews, I just shared them. What is funny to one person isn't funny to everyone else.

This is a blog about my exit from the Mormon Church. It says so right on the page. I did what was right for me. You do what is right for you.

You are ten. Be a kid. Go out and have fun with your friends. Get good grades. Learn learn learn... PLEASE learn. I am not talking about religion either. Learn about the world, learn about other cultures, learn about science, learn about the earth, and learn about how you can help save it. You seem like a bright kid, and while you are welcome to the blog at any time, please remember that this is a place for ME to share what I think and that you are more than able to create a blog and do the same thing (please get your Mom's permission before doing so).

Good luck you to,
Andee

Again, I don't really like replying to kids. I don't want to turn a child's life upside down or make a kid cry. Not my goal. This is a place for free thought and conversation about Mormonism and life in general. There is no way for me to block children from accessing WindySydney without marking the blog "adult content" which it is *NOT*.

Here is a comment from Joseph. I will be tackling this one a little different because... well... because I want to.

Hey, I don't mean to offend you in any way, I'd just like to let you know that for one who claims to have read the BoM close to 20 times, you really don't appear to have gotten much out of it.

Hey there Joe.

When people begin a comment with "I'm not trying to offend you, BUT" you know that you are likely going to offend someone. Right? Why else say that? Don't worry, I didn't take offense to your comment. I just wanted to take the time and make a proper reply.

Guess what? I got tons out of the Book of Mormon. Did you read the entire blog or just this particular post (that I didn't write, just shared)?

It's hilarious when people think they can judge what I know and what I don't know by reading one post on WindySydney. Here are some of the things I got out of the Book of Mormon (only a very small sample from 1 Nephi, go here for TONS of examples):

• The Native Americans are the decedents of those "who dwindled in unbelief." As a punishment for their disbelief, their skin was darkened and they became "a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations." 12:22-23
• The Nephites were "white and exceedingly fair." 13:15
• You must do whatever the prophet (Jesus or Joseph Smith) says. Those who don't will be cut off. 22:20
• Soon all the churches of the devil (non-Mormon churches) will be destroyed. 22:23
• "I make a record in the language of my father ... the language of the Egyptians." That's a strange language an Israelite around 600 BCE to write in! 1:2
• It only took Nephi and his family three days to travel from Jerusalem to the Red Sea. (A distance of 250 miles) 2:6
• Nephi breaks his bow, "which was made of fine steel." But the technology for making steel did not exist in 600 BCE. 16:18
• Nephi says that whatever he wrote on the plates was sacred. But he admits that he might make some mistakes, just like they (the guys who wrote the bible?) did. Not that he's making any excuses, of course. 19:6
• How could Nephi, supposedly writing this around 590 BCE, quote words from the book of Malachi, which was not yet written? 22:15
  

Get back with me on those, I would love your explanation. What have you gotten out of the Book of Mormon? Please share. That is why I welcome comments. Just remember to keep from judging those who have a differing opinion than yours. I know it's hard, just try.

I'm not talking about a spiritual witness or anything, because I'm sure you DID receive that, but have since lost it for one reason or another. I'm talking about factual accuracy.

Again, if you had taken the time to read the blog and not just assume things about me from an article that I didn't write you might understand more about me. You know nothing about me, you only know that I thought a spoof of a Book of Mormon review was funny. Wanna talk facts? I am ALL FOR IT!!

Please, lets talk facts.

Pretty please???

With a cherry on top???

Get back to me, leave a message here and we can have conversations about the facts in the Book of Mormon. I welcome it, I encourage it and I hope you follow through.

Maybe your memory isn't what it used to be, but you seem to be doing a very poor job separating the rumors from the facts, specifically having to do with the events occurring in the BoM (but, I'm sure, pervading to other aspects of your representation of Members of The Church).

I have a pretty good memory.

It's really funny that you think I am the one with the facts wrong. Please, again, get back to me about the things I listed above and we can talk about my poor job of distinguishing facts from rumors. Bring it. :)

Or, maybe you are intentionally misrepresenting the book and its means of being written? Your motives are beyond me, but I think it should be made known that your version of events is by no means accepted by the majority of those who know absolutely anything about this religion.

Thank you for your opinion, though I must disagree.

For the 5,000,000,000th time, I didn't write the reviews you have a hard time with. I just copied and pasted them for fellow ex-Mormons to enjoy.

I am not misrepresenting the Book, nor its means of being written. I have the actual facts, and you have what the church has spoon fed you. Learning about the "translation" of the Book of Mormon was one of the major things that made me realize the church was a bunch of crap.

Joseph Smith used a seer stone that he had been previously convicted of fraud with to translate the golden plates into what you now call the Book of Mormon. He put the stone in a hat, put his face in the hat, covered the light and claimed words glowed from the mystery rock.

It's not just something South Park made up. It's what really happened:

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us." -Emma Smith

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation... . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation"5 -David Whitmer

"

The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods." -Issac Hale

"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes - Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down. -Michael Morse (Emma's Brother-in-law)

There are plenty more quotes, but I didn't add them. I have the link if you want it.

This is a timeline of the events:

• 1822 - Joseph Smith finds a seer stone while digging a well by his farmhouse
• 
  
• Sept 1823 - Joseph Says he sees Moroni in a vision in his room and is allowed to see the plates but not take them.
• 
  
• Sept 1824 - Joseph visits the plates again, but is not allowed to take them
• 
  
• Sept 1825 - Joseph visits the plates yet again.
• 
  
• March 1826 - Joseph is arrested for "glass looking" with the seer stone to find buried treasure
• 
  
• Sept 1826 - Joseph visits the plates
• 
  
• Sept 1827 - Joseph finally takes possession of the plates
• 
  
• April 1828 - Joseph begins translation of Book of Lehi with Martin Harris as scribe
• 
  
• June 1828 - Manuscripts for Book of Lehi are lost
• 
  
• July 1828 - Joseph receives revelation telling him his gift of translating is taken away for a season
• 
  
• Sept 1828 - Joseph starts re-translation of Book of Mormon without any instructions from God or any kind of revelation. He just does it on his own, the really odd thing is he doesn't attempt to re-translate the Book of Lehi, and skips 1Nephi, 2Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni and Words of Mormon. He continues where he left off chronologically at the end of the Book of Lehi, or the beginning of Mosiah. His wife Emma served as scribe.
• 
  
• April 1829 - Joseph begins the "rapid-fire" translation now with Oliver Cowdery as scribe
• 
  
• April 1829 - Oliver Cowdery wants to translate with the magic rock in the hat, is granted the ability, then God changed his mind because Oliver isn't patient enough.
• 
  
• May 1829 - Joseph receives revelation not to re-translate Book of Lehi and to replace it with Books of Nephi. The Lord also tells Joseph that "NOW" his gift of translating is "restored" hmm...
• 
  
• June 1829 - Transcript is finished, witnesses "see" the plates and Joseph gives them back to Moroni.

Yeah, that last one there... you know the witnesses to the Book of Mormon in the front of every copy?

Guess what?

They didn't see the golden plates with their eyes.

Nope.

They saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes."

They saw the plates in their heads, my friend. NO ONE SAW THE PLATES. Probably because they never existed. Here are some things you might not know about the witnesses:

• The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature. There are many statements given by the witnesses that indicate they only saw the angel and the plates in a visionary experience. Why would people need to see real, physical plates in a vision or a real angel that was physically on the earth? There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock.
• The witnesses did not all see the plates or angel at the same time. The plates were seen in two groups of four not all eight together as popularized in church paintings. Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery saw the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not see the angel until perhaps three days later (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71). Why is this significant? Any magician will tell you that it is easier to deceive people in smaller groups.
• David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." So which statement was David Whitmer lying about or had been mistaken about? Either way he doesn't sound like a completely trustworthy witness. Note: LDS apologist rebuttal to this issue here and a critic's response here.
• All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family. Some like Martin Harris had a substantial financial investment in the success of the Book of Mormon.
• These men lived in the early 1800s and believed in magical things like many people did during that time period such as divining rods, second sight, seer stones, etc. Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context.
• Many of the witnesses ended up leaving the church and following other leaders and religions such as Jesse Strang, the Shakers, Methodists, etc. By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church.
• Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.
• The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.
• The "testimony of the witnesses" is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books etc. in those days to help spur sales. And of course, the BOM's producers originally intended to sell copies for $1.75.
• All three witnesses believed that God Himself had told them (through Joseph Smith) that they had been specially chosen to testify to the world that they had seen the angel and the plates –– if they had enough faith. Martin Harris was even told the exact words he must use: Joseph Smith said he had a revelation in which the Lord commanded Harris to say, “I have seen the things which the Lord hath shown unto Joseph Smith Jun., and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them.” And just to clinch the command, God threatened Martin Harris, saying, “But if he deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned.” A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking!

Maybe, just maybe, I know what I am talking about. Maybe that is why so many people leave the church? We can't all have been sinners who just wanted to go around eating babies and murdering people in their beds without guilt!

It's clear you don't have any idea about the truth of the church. I was there once. I was once just like you... taking offense to things people said without having attended church, knowing the people in it, feeling the spirit... you name it. I was there.

If you want to have an open debate on the blog I welcome you with open arms. Maybe you will learn something. Maybe I will learn something.

I like to learn.

Andee

So there you have it folks. It only took a month for someone to tell me I had no idea what I was talking about. I knew they would come back!!

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Check out this message I received on the "Great Moments in Mormon History" article I wrote a loooooooooong time ago...

Whomever is without sin, let them cast the first stone.

The only thing you have done in this post is to humanize members of the LDS Church. Humanization of Mormons does little to discredit Mormonism itself.

On the contrary - it makes the leadership much more real and accessible.

We can know that God does miraculous and amazing things through very imperfect people.

Thank you for helping to strengthen my testimony of the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is nothing better than being an active Mormon and participating fully in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God Bless.

dm

Dearest dm,

Are you without sin, because you are throwing a huge ass stone at me!

How is it that I dehumanized anyone by listing a series of events that actually happened? These events are documented and real. Are you ashamed of the events? Angered by the things I had to say? If so, you are directing your anger at the wrong person.

I don't need to de-humanize anyone to show evidence the church isn't what it claims to be. The facts do that all by themselves. :) The only thing you have done in your comment is make yourself look like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

You are welcome, glad I could help your testimony. You can take whatever you want from WindySydney, I couldn't care less.

Good luck in life...

Andee

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My how time flies...

I wrote this article 6 months ago, and I thought I would share it again. Not sure why, but I will just go with it. :)


This is an example of the emails that are being spread by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All misspellings, punctuation errors and other problems are the original authors fault... not mine. Really. I know I am a horrible speller, but this isn't me. Promise. My comments, as always, will be interjected when I feel like it.

I don't know if you're aware of whats going on politically here in California right now, but for the first time in my life I've seen the Church take a stand on a political issue to the extent that we've had Ward gatherings for the past three weeks to physically canvas neighborhoods and make phone calls to registered voters to educate them about the language and affects of Proposition 8.

Wow, that was one long sentence. I thought Brigham Young was good at that, but honey, you put him to shame.

Now, of course we know what is going on politically in the state of California. Duh. It's all over the news, and everyone is talking about it... especially if you are in the church. Your church neighbors are telling you how to vote, your bishop is telling you how to vote... oh, and your email is just another piece of evidence that the church is telling me how to vote. You don't see it that way? Shocking.

I guess I was kind of oblivious to the wider reaching affects that this could have on all church members but found this informative e-mail interesting and decided to forward it to you.

I can think of half a million other things that you are oblivious to, but we won't go there for now. Maybe later. Oh, and I will be the judge on how "informative and interesting" the email is, because I doubt your judgment.

In a recent Sacrament meeting in California, the focus was on amendment 8. (The gay marriage issue.) one of the speakers who was an LDS judge in the area, had statistics that were "mind blowing."

Can I ask you a quick question Molly Mormon? Why is it that the focus was on limiting the rights of a group of people and not on loving thy neighbor or preaching the gospel? Why not talk about Jesus and his wonderful teachings? Why not share love instead of hate? Just sayin'.

I also love how you used parenthesis around the words "The gay marriage issue" as if you were whispering the words so quietly as to not let your kids hear the word "gay." Give me a break.

For example, in Boston, PA, (where gay marriage is no le gal,) the Catholic charities have closed their doors because the state has required them to allow adoptions to same sex couples, and they refused. They are a large and worthwhile charity with great power in the state and they were overruled.

Sweetie... sweetie...

All charities should be equal to everyone, yes? I mean, lets pretend for a minute that everyone in the world thought the Mormon church was wrong, and those practicing it were immoral. Just for fun...

Okay, so lets pretend you want to have lots and lots of kids, but you can't. You would be a wonderful parent, but no one will let you adopt because you are a Mormon. Would you like that? Probably not.

No church should have power in the state. The separation of Church and state is something that should exist but rarely does... especially in the state of Utah. You see, charity belongs to all of God's children, whether you, the Catholic church or the Mormon Church see it or not. I find it telling that you don't. Do you even know God?

A Methodist church has lost it's tax exempt status because a minister refused to perform a marriage of a same sex couple (they were not of his congregation.)

The Methodist Church should lose it's tax exempt status if they are not treating everyone as equals. That is how it works. The Mormon Church will hopefully learn that lesson soon. No church has a right to give certain rights to certain people. One day, when you are on the outside of that circle, you will see how unjust and unfair it is.

A physician who refused to do fertility treatments on a same sex couple because of religious reasons was sued, lost, and the state is requiring him to treat everyone as equals.

OH! THE HORROR!

The state is requiring him to treat everyone as equals? Where will this insanity end?!

You are off your fucking rocker if you don't think this guy was out of line by denying his services just because of their sexual orientation. It's a bigoted thing to do. Are you sticking up for him? Looks that way. God help you, honey.

Remember a few decades ago when African-Americans were trying to get equal treatment? Remember how they had to use different water fountains, entrances, and had to sit in the back of the bus? This isn't any different. Those with dark skin can't change who they are, and SHOULDN'T change who they are. Same goes with those in the gay and lesbian community. They can't change, they shouldn't have to feel as if they have to change. They are productive members of society who pay the same taxes and work the same jobs. They deserve the same benefits that you do, honey, and if you can't open your mind enough to see that, I pity you.

Remember when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints had to be forced to give them the same priesthood that it gave the white men or THEY would lose their tax exempt status? No? Oh, of course you were never taught about that. Look it up. Please, and thank you.

Our schools will be required to teach, starting in kindergarten that marriages make up many different combinations. The consequences are horrible.

Eh? I don't see what is so bad about that... what is horrible?

What in the name of God is so horrible about teaching kids that everyone in the world is accepted and treated equally? It shouldn't matter if their families are made up with a mommy and a daddy, a grandmother and an aunt, or two mommies... it's the same.

By teaching kids that families should be one-size-fits-all-cookie-cutter-fairy-land-families, you are singling out every child that lives with his grandparents, his aunt and uncle, or the young men who adopted him. You are making these children feel as if there is something wrong with them and the family they are in. That is really, really messed up.

Would you teach kids not to hang out with other kids who have less traditional families? Would you not let them go over to play at their house? Why? Are you worried they would "turn gay?"

The ignorance is obvious, and THAT is horrific.

Directly tied to ALL of this is our right to continue to go to the Temple. If gay marriage is supported by the government, then those who are same-sex married, who are 'LDS' and legally recognized as married by the government can sue to be married in the temple.&nbs p; It is my opinion that the church will not bend on this issue, and our rights to go to the temple will be in jeopardy.

Sweetie, you can go to your temple, put on the silly clothes and do whatever the hell you want. The trouble starts when your church, the LDS Church, singles out a group of people and tells them they can't share in the "wonderful temple experience." I use quotations because we all know it's a load of crap anyway.

If you lose your temple, it's because your church isn't treating people as equals, not because the gay people are bad and evil. Open your eyes and examine it for what it is. Please. You could learn a thing or two about love and respect if you think your church is right in this case.

AND goodbye to those religious tax-deductions. Tithing, fast offerings, etc. We will lose our tax-exemption status if the government legally forces the church to support same-sex marriage.

They should have lost their tax-exempt status a looooooong time ago, and if there is one thing I have learned about the church I grew up in, it's that nothing matters more to them than money. They will have a revelation of some kind, and their minds will be changed. Just like in the past when the government threatened to do the same thing in 1978. Times are changing, and the church doesn't like change. Tough shit.

These effects are far-reaching! I hope no one is upset by this email, I would not want to offend anyone, but I believe this issue is not a political issue at all, but a moral issue that affects all of society.

Well, you have offended me, and you will continue to offend me until you stop trying to take rights away from people you don't even know.

I agree. The effects of banning gay marriage are far-reaching. It tells young men and women that they are not equal, respected, and they don't deserve the same right to happiness as you do. Morally, that is wrong, don't you agree?

What kind of morals do you have if you think it's perfectly fine to limit someone's right to happiness? Wake up and have some coffee. Please.

The Proclamation on the family clearly gives a warning voice on this matter. I pray that this issue on the ballots will overturn the gay marriages occurring right now in that state, and help prevent other states from adopting this stance. I believe that it is important to support and defend traditional marriage, home and family.

The Proclamation of the Family is something that Mormons believe in. Mormons. Not everyone else. Why are you going to force a group of people who are not of your faith to abide by your church's laws? Is that something you feel is right? Guess what? It's not.

While you are praying that the marriages of men and women who were married in the state of California are overturned because of your beliefs, you are forgetting that they have not hurt you, or your precious family beliefs. Let them be.

There is no way in my mind that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is right, true, or has the right to treat people the way it has in the past. I will say one thing, I WILL NOT PRAY THAT YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVERTURNED BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR BELIEFS. That is true morality. That is something you should learn.

Another friend says that her relatives in Sweden are even watching what goes on in California. Friends in Canada are watching. The whole world is watching what happens.

Yes, they are... and I hope they see the state of California stand up and do what is right.

You have a lot to learn, Molly Mormon, not only about this issue, but about your religion in general. If you only knew what they stood for.

Andee

P.S. If you don't want to take my word for it, read this...

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Steph, a random commenter, took the time to educate me about a verse in the bible about baptism for the dead. Then, I took the time to educate her on many other things in the bible she might not know about. Since I received so many emails and a few comments about that post, I thought I would take more time and share even more versus in the bible AND the Book of Mormon that make zero sense.

Thanks for the idea, Steph. I appreciate it!!

These quotes are taken directly from the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon that also includes the Bible and the Quran. If you are researching the truth about the Mormon Church, this website is a MUST SEE. It very clearly points out the obvious mistakes and plagiarisms in the scriptures. Let's start with the Bible... my favorites are in bold print :)

• God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

• "Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2

• Abraham begs God not to kill everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. [Which is odd, since later (Genesus 22:2-10) Abraham doesn't even question God's request that he kill his own son.] He asks God two good questions: "Wilt thou destroy the righteous with the wicked?" and "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" 18:23-25

• God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24

• If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then "the ox shall be stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.". 21:29

• If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30 shekels of silver, and "the ox shall be stoned." 21:32

• If a thief is caught and is too poor to make a complete restitution, then he is to be sold to pay for his theft. 22:3

• If you "entice" an "unmarried maid" to "lie" with you, then you must marry her, unless the father refuses to give her to you, in which case you must pay him the going price for virgins. 22:16

• Handicapped people cannot approach the altar of God. They would "profane" it. 21:16-23

• God punishes the children for the failings of their great-great grandfathers. 14:18

• God prefers the Israelites to everyone else. It's not that he's prejudiced, he just like them better. 7:6

• Hang on trees the bodies of those who are "accursed of God." They make nice decorations. 21:22

• If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." 22:23-24

• You can't go to church if your testicles are damaged or your penis has been cut off. 23:1

• God won't let bastards attend church. Neither can the sons or daughters of bastards "even to the tenth generation." So if you plan to attend church next Sunday be ready to prove that your genitals are intact and don't forget your birth certificate and genealogical records for at least the last ten generations. Don't laugh. This stuff is important to God. 23:2

• If a man dies before his wife has a child, then the widow must marry her husband's brother -- whether she likes him or not, and whether she wants to or not. 25:5

• God will punish Eli's descendants forever for the sins of Eli's sons. 3:12-13

• God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22

• Hate the sinner -- or God will pour his wrath out on you. 19:2

• Pekah killed 120,000 people in one day and enslaves 200,000 women and children "because they had forsaken the Lord God of their fathers." 28:6, 8

• God terrifies people by sending them nightmares while they sleep. 7:14

• If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. 9:3-6

• Beat your children and don't stop just because they cry. 19:18

• Beating your children will make them less foolish. Have you beaten your child today? 22:15

• Beat your children hard and often. Don't worry about hurting them. You may break a few bones and cause some brain damage, but it isn't going to kill them. And even if they do die, they'll be better off. They'll thank you in heaven for beating the hell out of them. 23:13-14

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Steph just left me this message on my baptism for the dead rant...

Hi.

Uhm I don't know if you guys know this.. but baptisms for the dead is in the bible. Look at 1 Corinthians 15:29.

In the afterlife I'm pretty sure it's not a whole bunch of religions. There aren't the Catholics over here and the Mormons over there. You must be watching too much of South Park.

Hi.

Uhm I don't know if you know this, but there are many things in the bible that you probably choose not to do? Are you okay with taking the Bible, something that has been translated more times than anyone could possibly count literally??

You claim that you are "pretty sure" heaven is a certain way, but I thought all Mormons "KNEW!" Lard knows I did! How is it that you are convinced heaven is a certain way? Where is your proof? Oh, and if you are going to list bible versus to back you up, I need to show you why they don't prove squat.

For example, did you know:

• God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. 3:16

• An uncircumcised boy is to be abandoned by his parents and community. 17:14

• God blessed Abraham by giving him lots of slaves. 24:35

• A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17

• Slavery is approved by God, and those who steal slaves must be killed. 21:16

• Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14

• God wasn't satisfied with the slaughter of the 3000, so he killed some more people with a plague. 32:35

• If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don't punish the man. (Even if he raped her?) 19:20-22

• "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first? 20:9

• If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 20:11

• If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 13:6-10

• Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 17:2-7

• Those who capture slaves and sell them must be executed. 24:7

• Women cannot wear men's clothing and vice versa -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord." 22:5

• God lays down the law on menstruating women. Such women are to God both filthy and sinful, and anyone who comes near them is contaminated by them. 15:19-30, 33

• If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28-29

• A good man never gets near a menstruating woman. 18:5-6

• If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved. 11:5-6

• Wives, according to Paul, must submit themselves to their husbands. 3:18

There are THOUSANDS of other examples listed here from topics from injustice, to intolerance, to downright absurdity. There is also a section for the Book of Mormon. Take a look, I dare you. You will see just how ridiculous this "scripture" is. It's not only scientifically impossible, it's stupid.

So, since baptism for the dead is in the bible, I take it that you follow these other things that are in the bible. You can't have it both ways.

You can't.

Do you kill people because they have different beliefs than you?

Do you tell people with rebelling children that their children should be killed?

Um Steph, do you wear pants? Because if you do it's an abomination to the Lord!

Do you hide away when Auntie Flow visits every month??

I also have to tell you that you are a complete ass by making the statement that we have been watching too much South Park. What the Hell?? That is the stupidest comment you could possibly make and it makes you look like a moron. Frankly, it says more about you than it does about us. We don't agree with you so you have to throw in childish insults? Is that something Jesus would do? Hmmmmmm????

Those who leave the Mormon Church and those against baptism for the dead have honest problems with the practice. Our points are valid, and it's clear that you are beyond looking at things objectively.

If you are going to leave comments on WindySydney please try to have a solid argument instead of throwing around insults. I have studied and I know what I am talking about. Have you???

You must be watching too much BYU television...

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