Windy Sydney

Here are a few of my favorite examples of how missionaries use "milk before meat" to keep members and investigators away from anything that might keep them from the church. This is far from honest, in my humble opinion.

For the complete list that Richard Packham wrote, complete with notes, please click here.

Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."

Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.

Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.

The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.

Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

• The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father)
• The United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church)
• Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven)
• the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978)
• Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities)

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.

Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

• The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.
• The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.
• The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.

Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy:

• God was once a man like us.
• God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
• God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
• God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
• Jesus was married.
• We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
• There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
• Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
• Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
• We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
• The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").
• In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
• Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
• Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
• The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
• Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
• Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
• Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
• The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
• If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
• A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
• You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

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Those who leave the Mormon church and have huge families within it have usually dealt with manipulation by leaders, friends and family members. Sometimes these people don't even realize they are using manipulation techniques to get their sinful, evil, non-tithing paying people back into the church, they are only focused on the end result... making sure everyone is on the straight and narrow.

Some stories of manipulation are kind of funny... take my case in high school for instance...

I had stopped attending church because I thought it was sexist. I couldn't take anymore girl's activities that included quilting, baking, sewing and crafting while the guys got to do things like repelling and playing ball. It was more that that, though. Our lessons consisted of telling us that we should marry a return missionary in the temple, have tons of babies and be faithful our entire lives. When I asked about a career (wanted to be a doctor at the time) I was told to pray about it, and if God wanted me to be a doctor, I shouldn't wait to get married and have kids... because yeah... med school is so easy with a newborn and toddler in the house?

Anyway, when I stopped attending I had a YW leader that took me on as a personal project. I wasn't exactly little miss popular in my tiny school, but I had tons of friends... most of them were non-Mormons. Suddenly, a couple really popular Mormon girls kept asking me to hang out with them... they acted as if we were best buddies and they couldn't wait to get together for this or that. I usually politely declined because I saw it for what it was... they really didn't care about *me* they just wanted my happy ass back in church every Sunday to hear their message.

Now, whats so bad about that? Right? A couple kids pretending to give a shit about your life and constantly (and I mean CONSTANTLY) requesting your presence in church activities and Sunday school?

It wasn't genuine.

I wanted a genuine life and genuine friends... not people who would like me as long as I did what they wanted me to do. A lifetime of fakery? No thanks.

It could have been much worse.

The other half of the manipulation stories are sometimes incredibly hard to read. Some faithful Mormons will do anything -ANYTHING- to keep their friends and family right where they want them. Regardless of that person's beliefs, thoughts, dreams and goals in life.

Some of these examples I found online in various ex-Mormon forums. I took out the names and usernames of the people who listed them, in case they don't want their information on my blog.

I just talked to my TBM Dad. He and my Mom are visiting next weekend for the first time in three years. They live 8 hours away. We've visited them several times since then and bought a new house last year. They didn't visit us then either. My Mom is retired and my Dad has 5 weeks of vacation plus government holidays. They aren't bedridden or in jail either.

Recently, they started making rumblings that they actually might visit us. My wife made the prediction that they would come late on a Saturday night so they can stay with us for free on the way to something else, go to church here, and leave immediately after Sacrament meeting.

Well, give the lady a prize! This morning, my Dad IM'd me and said that they are driving out to "Firth," Idaho (wherever in God's creation that is) to pick up an old truck that he bought off the Internet. They'll be here Saturday night, stay the night, and then leave immediately after Sacrament meeting. And he wants me to call around and find out when the earliest service is, so they can be on their way as soon as possible. Apparently because his fingers are broken and he can't look it up on mormon.org himself.

I was SO offended! They go to church every week, and they can't miss even this one time to spend 70 minutes with us. It's nice knowing where you fit in the overall scheme of things with your own parents. (1. Cult, 2. Kids.) I called [her] and told her about it, and she absolutely blew her top. She said that they should not even bother stopping by. And if they do, they can pay a normal motel rate.

You see... the church means more to these parents than their family does. The church claims to be family first -unless that family isn't what you are- a faithful member of the LDS Church.

The reason I believe this is manipulation is because the parents have been manipulated into thinking they are doing the right thing by putting the church first. Is this fair to them? The actual members of the church who pay their dues and attend the millions of meetings every month? Is it fair to their grandkids who will only know that the church meant more to their grandpa and grandma than they did?

I particularly loathe the "hey buddy" shoulder/back affection, where the garment inspector pats you on the shoulder, or goes for an arm-over-the-shoulder manuever to see if he can feel garment seams. It's spooky, and just plain *wrong*.

Is this manipulation?

Yes!

You see, the member that checks for garments isn't only doing just that... nope. He's keeping the other person in check. He's basically saying, "Gee, you don't have garments on... hmmm... what kind of sin have you committed? Why aren't you wearing them? I'll pray for you and tell everyone I know to do the same."

In my humble opinion, they are trying to use guilt and shame to get the ex-member back into a church pew on Sunday.

I will leave you with this list of quotes that TBM friends and family members said to one couple as they were leaving the church. It's amazing.

Mother1: "I can't believe how bad you turned out."

Mother2: "Shame on you! You should know better than that!"

Brother: "Don't try explaining, there's no excuse for leaving and you'll never convince me."

Brother in Law1: "You bastard. You've deceived our sister with your anti-mormon lies."

Brother in Law2: "I can't believe how stupid you are."

Sister in Law1: "I pray you come back before God punishes you."

Sister in Law2: "How can you betray your family like this?"

Father in Law: "Well, I don't know if the church is true or not, but I have a lot of friends there."

Mother in Law: "So what commandment couldn't you live?"

Missionary after I closed the door: "You still know it's true!"

TBM Friend: "I'm so dissapointed in you. What's wrong with you?"

TBM Friend: "I don't believe any of those anti-mormon lies. The Book of Mormon is true and that makes the church true - don't make excuses."

TBM Friend: "Well, I've had too many spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon to ever deny it."

TBM Friend: "When things get really hard in your life, you'll come back. I hope it doesn't take a tragedy to get you to repent."

When I originally posted this message, I got a lot of responses. Here's a collection of what other people heard from their TBM friends and relatives:

"I have heard you criticize and find fault with the Church so you can justify your decision to leave and this makes me very sad."

"What happened? I am disappointed in you!!"

"I hoped that by experiencing other Christian beliefs you would seek to gain a stronger testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ like I had done."

"My testimony of the Gospel has been challenged more than you will ever know, and I have stayed true to faith."

"I am deeply saddened that you have caved to the beliefs of man."

"You can go to some feel good Christian church as long as you want, but this church will never provide you with blessings of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ"

"You have no clue how much you have hurt mom/dad with your decision to leave the Church. How can you throw away everything she/he taught you like this?"

"Did you ever think just once what impact your decision would have upon ______?"

"I do not know about you, but I am choosing to Honor My Parents by staying true to the principles of Gospel Of Jesus Christ that we were taught as youth."

"How can you throw your missions away like this?"

"You may betray the truth but I will not."

"I hope you get your act together before your youngest child turns 8, as it would be a real shame for your children to grow up without the light of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in their lives."

"I would gladly come and baptize ______ if _______ was given the opportunity to learn about the Church. I have seen a change for the worse in _____ countenance and this is really upsetting to me."

"It is clear that you blame the Church for much of your problems and you figure that by running away from the Church your problems will go away!! They may go away for a little while but they will be back. The easy way out is just that - the easy way out."

"I was pretty shocked when we visited you and when we said we were going to the Temple and I asked if you had seen it yet you said no."

"You now know how I feel. I will not say what I have just said again. You will be very upset with me with for the things I have just said! They are the truth and sometimes the truth hurts."

"You will probably find fault with me for telling you how it is."

"Those Mormons really attack you when you leave the church..etc...etc....blah, blah, blah." Get over it."

"Please do not try to explain to me why you left the Church, because there is no good reason to leave."

"You can call it the "Mormon Belief System," "Mormonism," or whatever you like. I will tell you what it is: It is The Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ!"

"You used to have such a SWEET spirit."

"How can you forget all the Lord has blessed you with?"

"You know what I pray for? That you'll come back to the Church."

"Your leaving the church has strenghthened our testimonies."

"If you don't have what it takes to live the Gospel, you should at least take your daughter to Church so that she can know the truth. She shouldn't suffer for your sake."

"Have your husband reread section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, because the sin on his head for leaving the Church as a priesthood holder is greater."

"Can we still send the HT and VT to your home?"

"What are you going to do someday when you are dead and standing before the Lord and he asks: "Why did you persecute my Church?""

"This is the worst possible thing you could have done."

"But, if it weren't for the church, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN BORN!"

"I read all the anti-mormon literature too, and came to the opposite conclusion as you. I know obedience to authority is a key part of God's plan."

"That's not what the Church teaches!"

Stake President: (Hand raised to the square) "I declare in the name of Jesus Christ that this church is true."

Bishop: "When I find myself out of synch with the prophet, it means I have to change."

"Remember the warning, "Why do the women have to veil their faces during the "true order" of prayer, while the men do not? Aren't the symbolic and theological implications of this huge -- suggesting that women have a less direct link to the Mormon god than men do?'God will NOT be mocked'?"

"Your (deceased) mother/father would be so dissappointed that you are not raising your children in the church."

"You'll come back after you know what it feels like without the spirit"

"You knew it was true! You said it many times, so don't deny your testimony now."

"I have seen a decline in your general character."

"You've lost the light of Christ"

"You're so much angrier now that you want to leave the church"

"You're going to perdition because you had a full knowledge of the gospel and you're rejecting it."

"I hope I'll be allowed to come down and see you after we die."

"We believe in eternal families...that is what grandpa taught."

"I hope you rot in your lonely miserable apartment!"

"You know what you are doing is wrong!"

"But you've been through the temple!"

"So, are you going to start drinking?"

"If you don't believe it anymore then you have no business talking about it."

"I'll pray for you and hope you'll do the same for me."

"You're just pretending not to believe so that you can sin."

"Look in the mirror - can't you see how ugly you are?"

"Something terrible must have happened on your mission."

"You're like a fish in the ocean who sticks his head up and say "Where's all the water?" You've been surrounded by the Spirit your whole life. You just don't recognize it."

"You were a valiant spirit in the pre-existence. Satan knows that. So he's fighting especially hard to get your soul.

"It's so sad to see your children growing up without the Church."

"I wish I cold come back when I die and tell you the truth, but I don't think it works that way."

"You realize of course that there won't be a place for you at Jesus' table?"

"There won't be any oil in YOUR lamp, when the time comes!"

"I'm sure that those who leave the church won't become sons of perdition because they didn't really understand the gospel. Anyone who really understood would never deny it."

Andee

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All emphasis is mine...

Janice Peterson - Daily Herald

PROVO -- A Brigham Young University student was arrested on attempted kidnapping and assault charges Thursday after he allegedly used a stun gun on a woman and tried to handcuff her.

Police say Stetson Hallam, 20, was the 19-year-old woman's home teacher in their LDS ward, and the two lived in the same apartment complex south of BYU. Provo police Sgt. Mark Crosby said Hallam had pursued the woman romantically, but she did not have any interest in him. He was persistent in trying to date her, Crosby said, to the point where she felt "creeped out" by Hallam.

Look at this sleeze-ball! He was called to be a home teacher by his bishop and fell in love with a woman. He probably felt the spirit telling him that they were destined to be together for eternity. What do you want to bet? After all, he's a priesthood holder and he can get promptings from God, right?

Where was the spirit warning this woman that she needed to GTF away from this weirdo? Where was the spirit when he was "called by God" to be her home teacher? What kind of promptings did this asshole's bishop get when he called this guy for this position, and who did he get these promptings from??

According to a police affidavit, Hallam repeatedly contacted the woman, telling her he had a gift for her. She put off meeting with Hallam until she could have a roommate present, police say, and she was successful until Tuesday.

Around 3 p.m. that day, Hallam contacted the woman and asked to meet with her, according to the affidavit. She reportedly told him she could not because she would be working until 9:30 p.m., and she said he could leave the gift at her apartment. However, when she arrived at her apartment complex, she saw Hallam standing outside and felt he was waiting for her, according to the affidavit. She went to her apartment through a side entrance, but allegedly found Hallam waiting for her at her door.

Hallam allegedly convinced the woman to come with him to a common laundry room in the basement of the complex, where he told her one of his roommates had helped him set up a scavenger hunt for the woman's gift. The woman reportedly told police she could see no signs of other people present and became suspicious.

Gifts from home teachers are nothing new. They are usually little cards or photos of Jesus with candy attached, or bags of candy with scripture verses from the Book of Mormon... even the scavenger hunt thing is believable. When I was in young womens, this was promoted as just a good time with a healthy interaction between the young men and women. However, these are grown ass adults. A scavenger hunt? This is BYU for you... stunting the ability for these people to grow up!

I have had home teachers and even an over zealous young women's leader wait for me at my place until I got home from work back in the day. It was creepy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Mormonism for this guy's behavior... but I do think that the woman was too lenient on the man because of their religion. You will see why in a minute...

According to the affidavit, Hallam told the woman the gift was "junk art" and was located in a bin underneath a table in the room. The woman reportedly described the bin to police as five feet long by two feet wide and three feet tall, with a lockable lid and handles. Hallam reportedly told the woman some of her gift was Easter candy, which he had left in his car. He then allegedly left the room, during which time the woman did not approach the bin, believing it may be part of a practical joke, according to police.

When Hallam returned, he allegedly encouraged the woman to open the bin and pulled it out from under the table to alleviate her fear, according to the affidavit. The woman then reportedly opened the bin and found it to be empty.

At this point, Hallam allegedly produced a stun gun, a handheld rectangular device with two metal prongs on the end. He allegedly pressed the device against the woman's arm and she felt a surge pass through her body, according to the affidavit. Police say the surge incapacitated the woman and caused her to collapse to the floor, at which point Hallam pinned her to the ground.

Hmmm.... interesting, isn't it?

Seriously... my intuition would have been screaming at me to get the fuck out of there and she let him in? She went to the laundry room? She opened the box?

I'm not trying to poke fun at her or even claim that she was stupid... I can't imagine the terror she was going through at the moment. Please don't think I'm trying to be cold and mean. I'm just trying to make the point that the spirit wasn't really protecting her that day... was it?

The woman reportedly became frightened for her life and did not know what Hallam's true intentions were, according to the affidavit. She allegedly began screaming and fighting Hallam, who police say placed his hand over her mouth. He also allegedly produced a pair of handcuffs and put one of the rings on the woman's left hand. While he was applying the handcuffs, police say, Hallam's hand slipped and his finger went into the woman's mouth. She allegedly bit down on his finger until he let her go and apologized, claiming it was all an April Fool's joke.

The woman was able to get away and reported the incident to police April 8, according to police. Crosby said he did not know why the report was delayed, but a delay is common with this type of allegations. When she reported the incident, burn marks were still visible on her arm, as was bruising on her wrist, Crosby said.

"Several days later, we're still able to have signs," he said.

Police conducted a search on Hallam's room and car late Thursday night, but Crosby said he does not know what was found. Crosby said police were interested in finding the bin the girl described, which was not an item usually found in the laundry room. Although Crosby said Hallam never tried to force the woman into the bin or trick her into getting inside, he said it is still an important piece of evidence given the circumstances.

I would love to know why she didn't report the incident when it happened... did she go to her bishop first? Did she talk about it with friends or other leaders at either church or BYU? Did they ask her to delay the reporting?

I could be wrong here... but they have done this sort of thing in regards to other criminal behavior before. Especially when it includes sexual crimes and priesthood holders. Scout leaders, bishops, and others were given a "repent and all is well," free pass. Were they trying to help this guy?

"His whole premise was wanting her to open that box," he said.

Hallam was arrested Thursday night and booked into the Utah County Jail, where he is being held on a $5,000 bond on third-degree felony charges of aggravated assault and attempted kidnapping. According to the affidavit, police found a bite mark on the middle finger of Hallam's left hand.

Crosby said police are interviewing Hallam's roommates, but are uncertain which roommate he may have been referring to with the scavenger hunt because Hallam would not speak with police.

"He's not cooperating with us," Crosby said.

Crosby said Hallam does not appear to have any criminal history, and police have found no evidence so far of any history of mental illness.

"That's something that we're going to follow up on," he said.

Carri Jenkins, spokeswoman for BYU, said she had little information about the incident Friday. However, she confirmed that Hallam is a sophomore at the university. She said the university's Honor Code Office will now begin its own review of the incident to determine what actions should be taken. If it is determined that a person is a danger to the community, he or she may be banned from campus, but Jenkins said she does not know what decision will be made in this case.

"Every case is handled on an individual basis," she said.

He was arrested for aggrivated assault and attempted kidnapping. If the police have grounds to arrest him and hold him on bond, what other kinds of evidence do you need to know he broke the fucking honor code?

Come on!

The guy is a menace who was probably planning on kidnapping that woman and taking her away in that ridiculous box of his!

Yes, lets pray on it and make sure we are making the right decision. We need to make sure he's a real danger to the Lord's University before booting his ass off campus... after all, he's a priesthood holder, right?

Personally, I'd like to find him and wipe that smug look off his face... unfortunately for me, I have too much self control for that kind of thing... something he might want to google and do research on: self control.

What a mess.

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You Should Read This...

Temple Wedding Off Limits to Non-Mormon Family

This perfectly illustrates the pain that families go through when it comes to temple weddings. The belief that a loving God would ask true believers to do this to their families? I won't ever understand it... and I had a problem with it even in my most believing of days.

I hope this petition grows. I'm gonna sign it.

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The Church has unveiled a new video on lds.org telling the Young Women about the brand new Personal Progress books and website... and they are PINK! Ooooh, that will get girls to pay attention. Pink! Please watch the video. Please. You won't be disappointed.

Okay, see what I mean about the word Pink? Hilarious, isn't it? It's PINK!

Anyway, I would love to go into detail about this video and how disturbingly bad and wrong it is, and so I'm going to do it. You have been warned.

First of all, what ever happened to people being real? The women in this video are in la-la land, smiling that spirit-driven smile, glancing at one another as if they are in the Brady Bunch opening. Look how proud they are of their new pink handbook! The one they had nothing to do with! The one men wrote and gave to them!

They look like they are so drugged up on Prozac that they can't even focus on the camera. They are so sweet... but not a good sweet. Too sweet. So sweet that the sugar in my bloodstream as caused me to go into church-shock. Give me a break ladies... be who you are. Not who the church wants you to be.


But that is the main problem with the whole personal progress thing anyway...

It teaches young women who the church wants them to be, and doesn't give them any room to be themselves. It's a shame really.

The personal progress book taught me that God wanted me to be feminine, a mother, a wife, a temple-attending-tithing-paying robot like the rest of my Mormon friends... but I knew that wouldn't make me happy. I knew it in my head and in my heart... and when I told my leaders about this, I was told to pray more. To fast... and then I wasn't being sincere with my prayers because their advice didn't work. I didn't fit their mold and it was because I wasn't good enough.

There was a lot of talk about my "divine role" when I was a teenager. They make it sound so wonderful, don't they? A role that God himself wanted me to fulfill?

Why do this to young women?

I'll tell you why.

To keep the machine moving.

I have read on forums that baptisms are down, people are leaving the church and taking their entire families with them. The internet has made it difficult to keep the hard-to-believe doctrine away from potential converts and interested members.

The main way to keep the church growing is to tell the young men and women at an early age that they must follow God's plan to marry in the temple, have lots of babies, and raise them in the church. That way, there are tons of small children ready for their brainwashing as soon as they can say "Jesus Wants Me For A Sunbeam."


Let's get back to the review...

Look! There is a picture of the temple on the front of the progress book. Wow, thats something. Isn't it? I mean, heaven knows a young woman can't have enough pictures of the temple, right? You see, that is to remind them, as often as possible, what their goals SHOULD be. Temple marriage and children.

They promise that there are plenty of blessings that come with getting married in the temple, or just attending the temple in general... but everyone I have ever talked to about this can't really say they were more blessed than someone else. It's just a promise that can't be delivered.

Parents who were married in the temple have just as many problems, accidents, sicknesses, and random acts of anything than the rest of us.


What blessings are they talking about? The afterlife? Thats funny... because no one knows what happens in the afterlife, and they are drilling these things into the heads of young ladies that the only way they will be happy is following their directions. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Now, they tell the young women that they will learn new things, study the scriptures and pray every single day. These are things the young women are probably already doing in most TBM households. The new things they learn? How to sew, cook, clean and organize a home, how to care for babies and children, how to be a helpmeet to your priesthood holding husband who is the head of the family... you get the idea.

They offer pretty ribbons and necklaces as gifts for completing the lessons. This is amazing when you see it from the other side. What young woman doesn't want to earn those pretty ribbons? Those necklaces? What young woman (especially in a Mormon Community) doesn't want to show her friends how well she's doing and how many ribbons she has earned?

A tip for young women seeking truth? Go to JoAnn's and buy some ribbons. Give me a break.


Oh, yes... the young women are going through so many changes in their lives. Of course people notice. Especially the church. The church wont let them forget. The separate them from the boys, and constantly feed them "girl stuff" (for lack of a better explanation). What harm could come from teaching men and women the same thing about scriptures and church doctrine in the same class?

The entire video is just... fake. It's sad how they talk to the young women as though they are 5 years old and can't possibly comprehend anything without the super-sweet baby talk.

I'm so glad I'm out.

Andee

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Okay, I have to admit that I have read the first three books of the Left Behind series. I actually really enjoyed them, and their... well, their imagination.

Anyway, the whole "Left Behind" thing plus the television show "Punked" have inspired a group of Christians to create "Prank 3:16." Thanks to Christian Nightmares for this link!

Apparently, the show producers go out of their way to convince a random fellow Christian that the rapture has taken place, and scare her into thinking she has been left behind by the Lord.



This really bothers me for some reason, and I can't really put my finger on it.

I just think that it's pretty sad to do this to someone who has devoted their life to living their religion. Yeah, I know it's a prank... I just think it's a pretty mean prank.

Kind of like those fake lottery tickets? I think thats pretty damned mean. Not funny at all. Think of the relief those people feel thinking they have won millions, and then the heartbreak that it wasn't real? That their money problems were not suddenly solved?

Next, this girl isn't a very good actress... and the host isn't that much better. I don't buy for one second that her reaction was real. The whole thing was planned ahead of time... including her. Maybe it's me.

What do you think?

What would you think if this was a REAL show?

Now, I have written about this before, but I feel the need to share the story one more time.

When I was in girls camp, we were asked out of our sleeping bags in the middle of the night one night, blindfolded, and told to follow a trail and hold onto a rope and not let go... no matter what. There were older girls from the staff trying to trick us into letting go of this rope, but I just wanted the exercise to be over with, so I held on. When I got to the end of the rope, there was a huge tree covered in white Christmas lights and the adults were all dressed in white.

I had followed the plan and held onto the rope and therefore I had made it to heaven. Lucky me. What happened to the other girls who let go? They were taken to a clearing and given a lecture about holding onto the gospel and following the Lord's plan no matter what... and how people will try to trick them into letting go of their "rope."

These girls were then given a second chance to follow the trail and join the rest of us in heaven, but when they got there they were crying and sad. They felt they were not good enough and even the older girls who had tricked them into letting go were sad... sad that they had been the ones to lead the younger girls "astray."

The next morning, at the sunrise testimony meeting, many of these girls who let go bore their testimony-tearfully mind you- that they had learned a valuable lesson. That they never knew when their time would be up, and that they had to hold onto the church and it's teachings at all time, or risk everything.

I think tricks and pranks like these are manipulative and really creepy. The experience I went through is burned into my mind forever... kind of like a movie. It was one of my very first WTF moments.

Andee

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This is old, and I have posted it before... but I would like to remember it.

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The Official Street Preacher Website has an entire page detailing what is wrong about Mormonism, mentioning (among others):

MORMON THEOLOGY CONCERNING NEGROS

JOSEPH SMITH AND THE MAGIC SEER STONES!

JOSEPH SMITH'S LUST FILLED LIFE, HE HAD ALMOST 3 DOZEN WIVES!!!

Let me be honest, the Official Street Preacher website could easily be satire, and my exhausted human brain is unable to pick up on the sarcasm (I'm 90% sure it's sarcasm, but we all know there are people who are mentally ill enough to mean everything this guy says on the page... It's kind of like someone watching or reading the Onion News Network for the first time thinking, "Wait... that ain't right!"). Hopefully one of my wonderful, smart, beautiful readers will know more about this website and fill me in on the over-the-top insaneness that is Official Street Preacher.

That being said, it's funny to me how easy it is for religions to poke at each other...

"Mormonism is ridiculous for this reason!"

Um... yeah, but your religion is just as fucking ridiculous, you just fail to look at your faith with the same skeptical eyes you view others.

Don't get me wrong. Mormonism *is* bat-shit crazy. I would know. I just find this amusing.

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We all know that if we were not raised in whatever religion we happen to have been born into, we probably wouldn't believe in things like Jesus, large arks containing two of every animal, talking bushes, and the rapture.

I would have never believed... EVER... that a man named Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I wouldn't have been duped into feeling guilty that I didn't want to marry at 19 and have tons of babies with a return missionary, I wouldn't have gone through one of the hardest times I have ever had in my life. Realizing that Mormonism, and then God, were not really true.

After coming to the realization, I had to mourn my deceased loved ones all over again. Of course I was sad when they passed away, but in my heart I felt I would see them again, and that made me feel better. Now, understanding and taking into account all of the information at my fingertips, I have to realize that there might not be anything after we die, and that they really might be gone. Forever. It's not a good feeling, as a matter of fact, the first time I thought about this I cried for hours.

I was brainwashed into thinking these things. I didn't CHOOSE to believe in them, they were taught to me. By my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, neighbors, schoolteachers, and almost everyone I came into contact with in my hometown in Utah. Of course I believed them, why would they lie to me?

They didn't know they were lying to me.

Thats the thing.

They believed because they were taught to believe... just like I was.

I thought I would share some videos that really depict how kids are brainwashed into believing religious dogma. They are worth watching, and they really make you think... they might make you angry as well. :\



This kid reminds me of Lurch from the Adam's family:


Sounds like Lurch, too... doesn't he?

What is crazier than getting a group of teenagers together and having them make a video expressing the thought that everyone was going to die in the near distant future? Seriously... what the fuck?? Christians don't even think twice about this because they are so convinced the end of days in near, that we will all face judgment before a God, and that it is their duty to convince everyone else to subscribe to the same beliefs.

How would they feel if a Voodoo Priestess made a similar video, expressing the idea that all kids were going to die in the near distant future and she was the only one who could cast a spell and help them live for eternity? Is that really any different? Both sides are convinced they are correct, and both sides are mistaken IMO.

In this next video we see another approach to getting your kids to believe dogma:



Oh, that will teach him to be an atheist! Take away Christmas! No presents for the kid unless he agrees that Jesus Christ is his savior!

Again, WTF is this woman thinking? Is she taking into account that her Christian beliefs are not in harmony with her behavior to her son? Did she just walk up to him, threaten him, tell him to give her a "fucking break Michael," and get in his face like that?

Hypocrite much?



This lady is a well-known wack-job who was the main focus of the documentary "Jesus Camp."

She had these kids crying, singing, speaking in tongues, convulsing on the floor, and promising to devote themselves to the "War" against the devil.

One of her comments in this video gives me the chills...

"I believe this so much, that I have given my whole life to see to it that you get there."

She is a gifted speaker. She has the kids right in the palm of her hand. Making the kids feel like they are really important to her, to God, to the supposed war that is taking place. Telling them Harry Potter is evil, challenging them that they are one person at church and another at home or with their friends, telling them that they do things they shouldn't do (HOW WOULD SHE KNOW???) talk dirty (HUH?) and the kids look at her with awe and tears in their eyes.

She has CONVINCED these kids that they are bad, sinners, that they don't deserve the things they have, that they are selfish in their lives. Why is this so important to religious groups? Guilty people want to feel better.

What does this do to a kids self-esteem, though?

Personally, I would constantly question myself and my actions as a child. Would God be okay with what I was doing? Was I trying hard enough? Was I good enough?

I had nothing to feel guilty about. I was a good kid. I was on the honor roll, I had friends that I loved dearly, I didn't lie, cheat, or steal... yet I was made to feel like I was scum, and the only thing that could make me better was Jesus, God, Joe Smith, the Mormon Prophet and of course the religious dogma that caused the guilt in the first place.

This goes on and on in a person's life. I was 28 years old when I stopped believing in Mormonism. I was a grown woman with a full time job, I volunteered, I was kind to EVERYONE, yet I felt I wasn't good enough. I wasn't good enough because I wasn't following God's plan for me. Marriage, children, temple, church attendance, tithing, and guilt.

This is so unfair.

Looking back at the people who shaped my religious experiences, I find myself wondering where they are now. I know my Mom is out of the church, and that she is happy. I know my brothers are okay and not really subscribing to any particular belief system, my cousins are somewhat believers but not active, and the rest of my relatives are pretty much the same as they were when I was a kid. Mostly on my Dad's side of the family. Very, very, very Mormon.

This is an example of Mormon videos meant to teach members of the church how to introduce their children to the doctrine and help them develop their own testimonies:



This is a perfect example of how over-produced and fake religious videos can be. The lack of sincerity, lets face it... not everyone is an actor... The cheesy music, the young boy sitting in the back of the car sad because he wasn't sure if he had a testimony, the father getting a serious look on his face as he comes to terms with the fact that his son is questioning the church and his lack of a testimony, the mother sitting there... silent... letting the penishood holder do all the talking. She is, after all, just a woman.

Then things get serious. Mom looks at Dad again, gives him an encouraging, adoring smile, and keeps her mouth shut. Dad shuts off the radio, because this is serious... we are talking about Mormon testimonies here...

Then Dad starts reminding his son about the warm fuzzies. How they are proof that God listens to our prayers. They aren't just "feelings." They are special feelings. Put there by the Holy Ghost! Then, 2:14 into the video, the actress playing the mother finally gets a line!

Mom: Remember the other day when we were reading the Book of Mormon and you wanted to keep reading? Why didn't you want to stop? Son: I got this tingly feeling inside... that's the Holy Ghost? Dad: That's right son! That's how a testimony FEELS.

Um... sorry. Don't buy it. Nope. No little kid is going to sit down with his parents, read the Book of Mormon and enjoy it to the point that they don't want to stop. They would jump off the couch, run to the door and say, "Gonna go to Jack's house! Toodles!"

This video was made to tear at the emotions of Mormon parents. Making them connect with this man's parents who are probably long dead. That is another way the church tries to keep people in the fold. Reminding them of the sacrifices their ancestors made when they came across the plains to Utah for the church, the fact that they suffered for their faith, how many of them died and how hard it was. This was used on me countless times by MANY people. My ancestors came from Sweden, by boat, only to discover the saints had left for Utah. They were tired, hungry, and they had very little... but they made the decision to keep going and join the Saints in Utah.

I was told that if I left the church, I would be pretty much slapping them in the face and telling them that their sacrifices meant nothing to me. That I was telling them I didn't want to be with them for eternity.

Now look at this man's parents, how they helped him when he was a child realize that he had a testimony, and had they not helped him, where would he be?

Of course, any faithful Mormon thinks that nothing good happens to people who leave the church. Where would he be? Probably addicted to meth, in prison for rape and murder, and *gasp* drinking coffee on a regular basis.

Brainwashing puts irrational fears in your mind, consequences you will face if you don't do what the group wants you to do. It's actually quite scary how often they do this... and how MANY of them do it.

This next video is something I have shared before, but she says what I think so well that I want to share it again. She really takes the words out of my mouth:



I always had a problem with what she was describing, and I, too, never got up to share my testimony with the congregation on fast Sunday.

The paragraph repeated over and over to these young kids, and then they are encouraged to repeat it to everyone else, is a form of brainwashing. Let's also remember that everyone also fasts on this day, making the brain a little more easy to be manipulated. A child sits there, with their family, listens to the people they know and trust promise the church is true with tears in their eyes, and they believe them. Why shouldn't they? These are the people that love and take care of them.

It's sick. It's wrong. I hope it stops one day. I really do!

Andee

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I had a dream last night that I was walking around temple square in Salt Lake City with my Dad (who passed away from cancer in 1998). Dad wasn't religious at all, and that is what made the whole dream even weirder... I guess it was just one of those things. I have always had dreams with my loved ones who have passed away.

A couple years ago, if I had this same dream, I would be jumping up and down because my Dad came to visit me in a dream. I used to think that they were really reaching out to me and trying to communicate with me or give me a message. Now? Not so much.

Church dreams usually piss me off. Probably because I never remember the whole dream and I start obsessing about what happened. This leads to more thinking about the church, it's doctrines and how much it really fucked with my head.

Sometimes I feel like I have been able to put the church thing behind me, other times I get just as angry as I did when I found out the truth for the first time. Is it something I can get over? Maybe. I think it would be easier if my family members didn't assume the worst of me all the time, dropping not-so-subtle hints about going to church or saying a prayer, giving me the evil eye every time they see a coffee mug in my hand... you get the idea.

When I started learning the truth, I was really mad. I was mad that I was lied to. I wanted to drive to Salt Lake City and demand answers from the men in white shirts. I wanted to scream from the balcony of a hotel...

"They are lying!!! Lying!!"


Of course that would have been counterproductive and I would have ended up in jail :) So, I started WindySydney instead, starting out as an anonymous person questioning Mormonism in the heart of LDS Country. I am glad I did. It's great therapy.

The truth.

The church taught me to tell the truth since the time I was a sunbeam. Tell the truth, kiddos! God is always watching you. The Deity won't hesitate to put down marks on your permanent record! Lies only get bigger and bigger until they explode and ruin your life!

Why can't they take their own advice?

Why is it that they are not completely truthful to the members of their church? To the people who are considering getting baptized?


Oh, I know... there are many Mormons who will claim they know everything about church history and they still "know" the church is true. They claim that the lack of information or lack of complete information isn't important at all, and that we shouldn't worry about it. Seth, the Mormon commenter I finally started ignoring due to his arrogance and condescending attitude, would always make these points.

If it's not important, then why bother hiding it? Why go out of your way to tell the people in the church that they can't trust information from anyone else? Why edit the Book of Mormon and change things? Why don't they discuss certain aspects of church history and really get into the heart of the matter?

My Mom and I were talking a long time ago, and she told me she wanted nothing more than to go to Relief Society and have a lengthy conversation about polygamy, both in this life and the afterlife. That would never happen, though. It's not talked about because they would rather not talk about it and live in denial.

People are afraid of the truth.

How is it that certain people automatically get believed when they spout off nonsense? Pat Robertson is a good example, Thomas S. Monson is another. Regardless of what these two people say or do (among others) their followers will believe them. No questions asked. None.

Anyone who sets him or herself up as God's infallible wing-man on earth should be looked at from every angle. Instead, the sheeple nod their heads, say their prayers and thank their God that they belong to the right church.

What has Thomas S. Monson done to prove he is a prophet? What kind of prophecy has he given that has come true? Has he ever made comments about meeting with Jesus and God in the temple? Having conversations with them about things? Has he ever even attempted to show the people on earth that he really is a prophet?


I think it comes down to one very important decision everyone has to make at one point or another...

Do I want to go along with the flow, or do I want to find the truth about things?

Is the truth more important than the warm fuzzies?

Is the truth worth alienating friends and family members?

Is the truth worth the constant comments and aggravation from members of the church who are convinced I am being misled?

The answer to those questions is a big, fat YES.

I want to know things, to understand them, to embrace what we have in the moment. I don't want to cross my fingers that I choose the right religion, waste time in hundreds of meetings, pray to a God that will ignore you, give up 10% of my money, or belong to a corporation that doesn't think twice about trying to limit the rights of people who are different than they are.


It wasn't easy to learn the truth and have to make big decisions about who I should tell or shouldn't tell. I knew first hand what the church tells members about apostates. I knew what I was up against... and until Mormons go through that themselves they have no idea just how huge and life-changing that can be.

The church was a part of my very existence. It was something I thought about constantly. It's hard to walk away from the normalcy, the comfortable bubble.

I still find myself humming church hymns. I will be walking over to my Mom's house and I will find myself singing Nearer My God to Thee, Choose the Right, Teach Me To Walk in the Light, Count Your Blessings, and I am a Child of God. Those melodies will be in my head forever... and they are catchy, too. Especially after singing them every Sunday (sometimes more) in a boring, slow paced, nearly monotone, funeral death march beat.

So, I have a question for you guys...

Why is it that certain topics are taboo? Not discussed? Why doesn't the church address these things head-on instead of pretending they are not there?

Why are there historically incorrect pictures shown to members of the church that conveniently leave out things like seer stones?

Why doesn't the church recognize that the Book of Abraham isn't even close to being what Joseph Smith said it was?

Why do they tell the members of the church that they shouldn't go on the internet for information about church history and instead only trust info that comes directly from the men in white shirts?

I think I will always be angry about this. Not because I have a dark, Godless heart... but because I went through so much guilt and drama. My anger isn't directed at the members of the church, it's directed to the leaders who have the information at their fingertips and continue to make excuses for the actions of prior leaders.

If you aren't angry, you aren't paying attention.

It's not even close to being a moral thing to do... picking and choosing what information to give. It's so underhanded and sly that it makes me shake my head in disgust.

How do they get away with it?

Shouldn't people all over the world hold religious organizations accountable for the outright lies they tell on a daily basis? Why aren't there more people willing to stand up and demand answers from these people?

I do take comfort in knowing that there are more and more people coming to their senses about Mormonism. That goes for other religions as well. The age of information is upon us, and those who take advantage of the wealth of information learn and grow. Atheism is getting more and more common, and while I don't really care what people believe (as long as they don't make me live by their religious rules: UTAH) I think it's good that people are looking at things in a logical and careful manner.

Blind faith gets you nowhere. You just spin your wheels, devoting time and energy to a belief system that just isn't right. You feel guilt for normal things, you give money to an already wealthy church, and you beat yourself up for not being who the "Lord" wants you to be.

I love truth.

Andee

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I came across a few of these videos on Christian Nightmares. I have blogged about them before, and the website is AWESOME. I also added more videos from YouTube to show how religion wants to scare you into believing the end of times is near and the only way to get to an imaginary place called Heaven you need to do what they say.

End of World



I love how this video is made to look like a freaking disaster movie.

The lack of compassion and love this video talks about is what I see in most religious groups. Intolerance for those who have different belief systems, those who don't believe in God at all, homosexuals, women, and lets not forget that racism is still alive and well in many places.

Do they need to look forward to the end of times so much? Are they that convinced that it's going to happen? It's almost like they love thinking about how God is going to destroy everyone but them and they dream about watching all the "sinners" be punished. They are, after all, the chosen people. It's ridiculous.

The Truth



Yet another example of making the end of the world look like a feature film trailer.

It's not a movie peeps, and if the world ends at some point it's because dimwits decided to stop taking care of the Earth and ignoring global warming. I don't think for one second that religious people worry about the state of the Earth (well, most of them). They think God is going to come and save them and it won't matter what happens to our planet. After all, the Bible gave us dominion over the Earth, and we can do what we want with it... no biggie.

Another thing I wanted to mention was that when Christians post these vids on YouTube they usually turn off comments and ratings. They want to get their message out there, but they also want to ignore all differing opinions about the videos and what they represent.

Are they afraid of someone challenging their beliefs?

Yes, I think so.

Do they know deep down that they might not win the debate with people educated in science and history?

Yes, I think so.

This is War - Paul Washer



I have a really bad reaction when I hear preachers use the word "War." I have an even worse reaction when that sermon is put to music and put on the internet to reach more people and make them feel as if the preacher himself is all knowing. The preacher doesn't know anything more about the end of the world, life after death, or the meaning of life than you do. He just wants you to think he does.

They stand before their congregations as men who supposedly have the answers from God and tell them passionately that they should believe they are at war.

War with who?

War with Satan? War with other religions? War with against Darth Vader? Are we being invaded by aliens who want to kidnap us and eat our brains (why not, most of don't use them!)?

No, we are not at war.

Instead of preaching using the word "war" I wish they would use these words:

1. Love
2. Compassion
3. Understanding
4. Acceptance
5. Empathy

But no... the word war means more to them. Why?

Using the word war immediately makes people feel that they have enemies. That people are against them. Brigham Young once said (paraphrasing):

You are either with us or you are against us.

This is flawed thinking. No one cares if you want to believe in God or believe the end of the world is near, but I have a problem with your preacher trying to convince you that I am at war with you because I don't agree with the conclusions you have drawn from the Bible.

War is bad. All war is bad. All. Of. It. People die in wars. People become separated from those they love, they become filled with hate for those who are viewed as being on the other side.

Believe what you want, kind religious folk, just don't pass laws saying I can't drink on Sunday, make my future children pray in school, or teach my kids that we all came from Adam and Eve. Your answers are not my answers. That doesn't mean we can't be friends. That doesn't mean we are at war. That means we can disagree and still find ways to connect to each other as members of society.

Scare tactics suck.

Andee

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Grandpa Heston really got me all worked up with his comments.

Now I find myself wondering if people like that purposefully antagonize ex-Mormons.

I know some probably do it because they like to argue or debate the topics at hand, but the more I think about it, the more I think Grandpa Heston wanted me freak out. Again, not all apologists do this, I am not making a blanket statement about all religious people.

Not all Mormons want to poke at you or make snide comments designed to grab the other persons emotions. Believe it or not, it was the freaking coffee comment he made. It's no secret that Mormons are taught to assume people leave the church because they want to sin, they are possessed by Satan himself, or do things like drink coffee. I remember a lesson about apostacy. My leader was very clear to us (I think I must have been 9 or 10) that we should never "harden our hearts." That phrase is used so often that it has lost all meaning).

It's funny how most of the arguments are just automatic responses. Kind of like how cult leaders make "thought stopping" phrases. I bet you that Gramps didn't even read the entire article he commented on, he just went into autopilot and repeated what he has heard. Did he take the time to think about his response first? Consider that my points are valid? Don't think so. He chose to make digs at my character instead of focusing facts and having what could have been an interesting conversation with a believer.

Heston, people are not going to listen to your arguments if you come across as an egotistical know-it-all douche. You can do better.

He bugged me because he was commenting like an arrogant jerk. The snide comments about coffee and not posting the Brigham Young quotes he would have wanted (seriously, what am I supposed to do? Call this asshole up on the phone and ask his permission to say what is on my mind? Yeah, he would have to be my publisher/editor. Ridiculous much?

Kind of rambled, but oh well... hahaha...

Andee

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Time for another trip into the WindySydney mail bag!

A man by the username Grandpa Heston left me a couple comments that I want to reply to. Grandpa Heston's comments will be in quote blocks and italicized and my responses will be in bold letters to help keep things easier to read/understand.

Lets get started...

Your comments are interesting to me. Being obedient means that we subject our will to the Father in Heaven. No one should blindly follow the prophet or anyone else in the flesh. As for me I pray (as you said the only way that you would be obedient is if God told you himself)for an answer from God. He either confirms to me or not that what is said by anyone is from Him. So far the score is: 100% right for the prophets teaching me. For others that I trust enough to pray about the record is less favorable. YOu ought to try it with a sincere heart and see what you find.

Your comments are interesting to me, as well. I am especially interested in the comment you made about being obedient to our father in heaven and not blindly follow the prophet. First of all, there is zero proof there is a father in heaven, a space-daddy, a super fantastic club we get to hang out in after we die.

Who is it you want me to be obedient to? Because here is the thing... all scriptures are man made. The bible says shellfish is an abomination, sell your daughters into slavery... the list is endless. Should I be obedient to that God? Why or why not?

Have you ever played the telephone game? Someone whispers something in a friends ear and they keep passing the same message around the room? This is kind of how I see the bible and other religious texts. These are not God's words. These are words that men claim are God's words. So, if I am to be obedient to the God of the bible, I need to do some of these things:

-Abandon boys who are uncircumcised. Genesis 17:14

-Incest is best. Moses was the product of an incestuous marriage. Exodus 6:20

-God says it's okay for slave owners to split up slave families. Exodus 21:4

-If you "entice" an "unmarried maid" to "lie" with you, then you must marry her, unless the father refuses to give her to you, in which case you must pay him the going price for virgins. Exodus 21:16-17

-God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Believe me when I say I could go on and on. I have before. Many times. I need to obey a God that would do those horrific things? Interesting. Sorry, can't do it.

If there is a God, and He wants me to be obedient to him, then He needs to make his presence known. Mormons believe the prophets are communicating with God, and therefore they have more answers to things than other regular church members. The only way I would know what God wants from me is to what? Read scriptures that can't be trusted completely, and ...listen to and obey the prophet.

I didn't necessarily appreciate the Brigham quote. He had a great many things that he said. This is one small one that detractors use. How about quoting the rest that read a more favorably?

Oh, what quotes would thou like me to share?

There are great things?

Really?

How about his teachings that Adam was God, that there were Quaker-like men living on the moon, that anyone bearing children with someone with dark skin should be put to death immediately to save his soul?

Brigham Young had an ego the size of Texas, and by reading my copy of the Journal of Discourses I learned a lot about him. He treated women like property, he took anything he wanted, and he would publicly chastise people who openly challenged anything he said or did.

Next time I will check with you before quoting something a pretend prophet said as to not upset you. I am oh, so sorry.

Do you really think a true prophet would do the things he did?

Don't you think that if Brigham was really speaking and communicating with the Lord that God wouldn't have a few things to say about his sermons that the church now pretends don't exist? How about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? That was God's will?

Love you. Enjoy your coffee. I prayed about that too. Prophets were right. Coffee Bad! All it does is give you headaches when you don't have it and a lot of other little maladies like bad belly, the jitters etc. etc. Prayer is the soul's sincere desire. You enter Heaven through prayer.

Oh, I love the coffee dig.

Yes, I stopped going to church because I wanted to drink coffee.

That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments ever proposed to me on this blog, and I have had some doozies.

You love me? Want to get married and have babies? I can cook. Only vegetarian, though... and I would like to get to know you a little better before agree to return to the church as one of your many polygamous wives that are promised to you in the afterlife. The Celestial Kingdom always sounded kind of moronic to me, as if women would be jumping at the chance to share a husband with other women and populate their own worlds with spirit children they had to carry. Sounds like hell, not heaven.

Your comment makes you seem arrogant and sarcastic. Very bad way to get people to listen to the points you are trying to make.

If prayer is the soul's sincere desire, then lets take a look at that...



How do you know anyone hears your prayers? How about instead of praying to your heavenly father for a week, you pray to a can of Spam:



The results would be the same. They would.

I forgot. I always ask this of those that have left the church. Why do you never comment on the things that you know that the church (its people) and their leaders do right? If you are truly the free thinker that you purport you are, why not put the good things that you left to balance out some of the junk that you feel is so wrong? But alas. that would require you to be honest wouldn't it?

There are many ex-Mormons reading this last paragraph, and I can garruntee that they are laughing as hard as I am.

What should I praise the church for?

I should praise the church because they go out of their way to limit the equal rights of fellow human beings who don't even belong to their church?

I should praise the church for not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood until they were forced to change that rule to keep their tax-exempt status?

I should praise the church for not giving equal rights to women?

I should praise the church for telling women that they needed to be in polygamous marriages in order to reach the celestial kingdom?

I should praise them for their dishonesty?

I should praise the church who spends millions and millions of dollars on temples, church buildings, and expensive high-rise condo complexes instead of putting that money to use in a more helpful way... like feeding the hungry... that sort of thing.

I should praise the church for not being honest to me when they taught me the stories about church history? The translation of the Book of Mormon is my favorite example...

I should praise them for these things?

I know that most of the people in the church are good people, and if you had taken any time whatsoever to read more than one article on this blog you would know that. My entire family is Mormon. I love them no matter what, even if they act like you and assume I left because I crave Starbucks.

What you don't seem to understand is that my points and concerns with the church are valid.

As for the last sentence you wrote, you are implying that I am being dishonest. If you want to make that claim, please be prepared to show evidence to prove I am lying or being dishonest in any way.

I take that for what it is, a dig, a jab, an internet "F-you!"

What you have done is use every single apologist tactic out there. Trivializing my concerns, claiming I am dishonest, and being an all-around jerk. If you want to really communicate with people honestly about their concerns over your church, try being a little more kind and understanding. You sure came off as a egotistical jerk who thinks he knows everything.

If I had a dollar for every time some jerk-wad called me a liar without offering any kind of example or evidence I would be living in my dream home, attending college full time, traveling the world, and donating to charities that show where their money goes. I would be wealthy beyond imagination, almost as wealthy as the Mormon church!

If you had read more than one lonely article on this blog, you would know that my concerns are not just with the Mormon Church. That just happens to be the religion I was born into. I believe all religion is more negative than positive. Look at what it has done to you!! I am sure that without religion you wouldn't be so quick to judge others.

If you excuse me, I have to go to the store and stock up on coffee beans.

Andee

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