Windy Sydney

A photographer friend of mine emailed me this list of questions, and asked me to respond with images only. I thought it would be fun to put on the blog... so... I did. I would love to see how my blogging friends would answer these questions... please consider yourselves "tagged."

1. How old will you be on your next birthday?


2. Where were you born?

3. Do you have pets?

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Being a young woman in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't easy. Especially in the way they teach these young women what should be important to them in the future. Very rarely will you hear a church teacher talk about career or personal happiness, instead they promise the young woman that by following the plan they have laid out for her, she will be happy. This simply isn't true.

Each girl in the Young Women's program is given a booklet called "Personal Progress." This was the beginning of the end for me as a teenager. My life's goals were not represented in the book at all, and when I didn't get all excited about learning to change diapers with the rest of the girls in the group, I knew that I just didn't fit in. Thank God I followed my own heart and did what I thought was right for me. If I would have married young as they did, I have no idea where I would be or WHO I would be.

The current Young Women's Personal Progress book is published online for anyone to read on LDS.org. Here are some of the quotes from the book that made me shake my head in disgust. Is this really what we should be teaching the young women?

Increase your understanding of and appreciation for womanhood. Read Proverbs 31:10–31 and two talks on womanhood from a conference issue of the Church magazines. Review what “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” (see page ii) says about being a wife and a mother. Then ask your mother or another mother you admire what she thinks are important attributes for being a mother. List the attributes in your journal. Then choose one of those attributes and strive to develop it. After two weeks report your success to a parent or Young Women leader.

First problem. Sure, *if* a young woman wants to focus on having a family right away... fine... *but* you should be explaining how hard it is financially and emotionally. There is more to a woman than being a wife and mother, and the church doesn't seem to understand that. Forcing young women into this mold isn't really fair to them.

Think of faith as a seed as you help plant, care for, and harvest a vegetable garden.

This would have made me sad, because I have the opposite of a green thumb... I have the black thumb of death. What could I have learned about faith by killing a load of vegetables? We all die? Yeah... really spiritual. That is just me... I am sure other people are more skilled at gardening than I am.

I would have ended up going to the supermarket, buying vegetables and passing them off as my own. I would have learned to lie.

Develop a skill you could use in your future home, such as cooking, sewing, making repairs, or designing. Teach that skill to someone.

Oh. My. God. Why are young teenagers being taught about their future home when they should be being taught about the world around them? Go to school. Get a degree. Do something positive for someone else. Ugh.

Using an art or handicraft you have learned, make something for your future home.

Yeah... um... again... why are we so focused on the home? Because that is where we are supposed to spend our lives. They try so hard to make it seem fun, but it's still brainwashing any way you look at it.

Learn the importance of planning and preparation. Read D&C 88:119. In your journal make a list of your hopes and dreams for your future home, family, and education and some important things you would like to accomplish in your life, including becoming a wife and mother. Then record a plan that will help you achieve your goals. Share this plan with a family member, leader, or friend.

Yes, young women...

Make a list of all the things you want to accomplish in your life. Make sure that being a wife and mother are on that list... if they are not you will be sent back to do your homework again.

Learn about the importance of patriarchal blessings. Find out why they are given, who can give them, and how to prepare to receive one. Discuss with a parent or Church leader how a patriarchal blessing can guide your life. If you have not received your blessing, prepare to receive it.

This one is funny because patriarchal blessings are a giant waste of time. You visit some old guy and he interviews you, he asks you questions about yourself, what you want out of life, and then he gives you this blessing that is supposed to be special and just for you. It's laughable, because if you compared your blessing to everyone else, you would see how freaking identical they are. It's like a bad psychic reading. Most blessings include things like "You will be a mother in Zion" or "You will serve a mission." Wow. Deep stuff, huh?

Learn how to organize, clean, and maintain a home from your mother, grandmother, or another woman you admire.

Because that is all you can strive to be in the Mormon Church... a wife and mother.

Under the direction of your leaders, help plan and direct a youth dance or other activity that features appropriate dancing instruction and wholesome music, lighting, and atmosphere.

Hehe... this could have been fun with Andee in the director's chair. Hmm... appropriate dancing instruction? Okay... how about we all learn to krump?
Wholesome music? Sure... we can find something to krump to...

Wholesome lighting and atmosphere? Gotcha covered...

Pray for a missionary experience. Read Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19; and D&C 88:81. Invite a friend who is not a member or one who is less active to go with you to a Church meeting or activity. Introduce your friend to others, and make sure he or she is involved in the activity. Share your testimony of the gospel, and invite him or her to come again.

What you should do respect your friends for who they are and what they already believe in. If they ask you, fine... but trying to convert your friends is so tacky. Sorry, I just really feel that way. Maybe you could learn something from their culture or religion? Would most Mormon leaders be open to let you attend some of their services and outings? Probably not.

When I was in high school I sang with a couple of my friends in their Church. I was the only Mormon, and their church was non-denominational. When some of my Mormon "friends" found out I was singing and attending that church on occasion (very rarely, because I didn't really believe in any religion) they were shocked and tried even harder to get me back into the fold. Satan must have had his claws in me.

Prepare to be a homemaker by collecting recipes, shopping for food, and preparing meals for your family.

Believing Mormons, this should be a giant WTF moment for you. Why should a young teenage girl be preparing to be a homemaker? What the HELL? Why shouldn't she be out being a kid? Why shouldn't she be doing something she is actually interested in? Stuff like this pisses me off.

Look up the word integrity in a dictionary. Interview your mother, grandmother, or another woman you respect about her understanding and application of the word. Make a list of ways you can make your actions consistent with your knowledge of right and wrong, and record in your journal what it means to you to have integrity.

Hmmm... integrity? Let me just warn you that the people who are trying to teach you to have integrity have very little of it. Just my humble opinion.

Andee

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It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

Really.  It is.

Yesterday morning I woke up to a freezing cold bedroom.  I usually sleep with my window cracked open in the summer and fall, and the cold weather caught me by surprise.  I had to talk myself into getting out of bed to close the damn window, and I didn't succeed.  I ended up taking my entire bedspread with me.  

Every store I walk into has a huge Christmas display already set up.  Pre-lit Christmas trees, stockings, ornaments... you name it.  I love the holidays, but when it starts this early I tend to get sick of the constant fa-la-la-la-laaaaing.

Money is tight right now for everyone.  I am not going to have the money to spend on tons of Christmas presents this year.  I am going to have to give out photos I have taken, or baked goods.  I will be a Christmas-cookie baking fool.  I plan on getting some really nice ribbon and wrapping the baked goods to look nicer than they will probably really be.  

Anyway, here are some fun Christmas ideas for everyone... just because...

 Stained Glass Cookies

 Gingerbread Snowflakes

 Cocoa Shortbread Cookies

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Chad Hardy is the gentleman who put together the "Men on a Mission" calendar that created an uproar not too long ago.  The uproar wasn't people upset with him because he made the calendar, the uproar was because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints excommunicated him when he refused to give up the project.  The whole thing was stupid, and even most believing Mormons I talk to roll their eyes at the church for turning this into something so huge.  He didn't deserve to be excommunicated for taking photos of men with their shirts off.  Since when is that porn?  Give me a freaking break!

Anyway, Chad Hardy graduated from BYU not too long ago.  He even went to the ceremony with the rest of his class.  He was eagerly awaiting the arrival of his diploma, but it never came.  He eventually called the appropriate people at the University and they had little to say.  Turns out, they have no intention on giving him the diploma he rightfully earned.

Nearly everyone I have spoken to about this is outraged.  He completed the necessary requirements to graduate, yet they hold back the one thing he needs to prove it?  What are they trying to do? Punish him?  

I find this sickening, and I, along with tons of other people have sent off emails to the BYU folks to tell them exactly how we feel.  I beg, plead and grovel to you to do the same.  Help us make some noise! Here is a list of information you can use to help the cause that came from Chad, himself.  Please help him out, he earned it and he deserves his diploma!!!

Norm Finlinson, PH.D.
Executive Director
Student Academic and Advisement Services
Brigham Young University
B-202 ASB
Provo, UT 84602
email: norm_finlinson@byu.edu
phone: 801-422-3641

Call, write, email. Let's bombard his office with complaints.

Also these people also deserve phone calls, who were cc'd to my letter:

Michael R. Orme
Janet S. Scharman
Vernon L. Heperi
Jeffery Bunker

Also, call the president of the school.

You can call school info to be directed to their offices:
801-422-4636

It's a shame that a University that prides itself on a strong sense of right and wrong has to be reminded that they should be honest and trustworthy... 

Andee

Edited to Add:  The amount of people reading this article from BYU.edu is insane... Keep reading... PLEASE... open your eyes

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An online super-hero named Craig (who is just an amazing friend who really gets me), who writes on the blog "Yes, I am" mentioned that today was National Coming Out Day.  

Please extend your support if a family member, friend or acquaintance shares that they are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgendered.  This isn't a choice they make, or something that should or could be "fixed" with therapy.  They are just fine the way they are, and you should be one to let them know that you love them as an equal.

Pass on this message, please.

Andee

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a long history of limiting equal rights, and going out of it's way to keep it that way.

Many prophets and other church leaders claimed that those with dark skin were cursed by God for being less valiant than white-skinned people in the pre-existance.  It baffles me how leaders of any church can judge people for things that happened before they were even born.  Not only is there no proof that dark skinned people were cursed, there is no proof of the pre-existance at all.

These same so-called prophets of God also taught that those with dark skin would only go to heaven if they went as slaves to un-cursed white people in the Celestial Kingdom.  That was all they could strive to be... sick, huh?  They also claimed that if dark skinned people accepted the gospel into their heart their skin would grow lighter.  Not only is that impossible, it's insulting.  All skin colors are beautiful, and skin color has nothing to do with a person's character.

When I was growing up, these things were never mentioned to me.  I was born in 1979, and African Americans couldn't hold the priesthood until 1978.  Many converts and children learning Mormon history from missionaries or neighbors have no idea this happened at all.  All mentions of this doctrine has been magically erased from church materials in hopes that it would all *poof* and go away.  Not likely.

Once the church was threatened with loosing it's tax-exempt status, they suddenly received revelation to allow everyone (except women, of course) the ability to hold the priesthood.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had to be forced to do this.  Remember that, please.  The timing alone is enough to prove it to me.

What upsets me the most about this doctrine (and don't let anyone convince you it wasn't doctrine... it was) is that the leaders of the LDS Church still claim that the past prophets were doing God's will.

That is right ladies and gentlemen... you read it correctly... They believe and teach (only when asked) that God wanted the past prophets and leaders to make these racist comments, say horrible things, and judge dark skinned people for a reason we "just don't understand right now."

I don't know about anyone else, but the God I believe in is kind and loving.  He wouldn't want any of us to suffer in this way.  My God wouldn't do that.  Ever.

Brigham Young was once quoted saying that if an interracial relationship were to ever happen, or "mix seed" the punishment would be death on the spot, he also claimed that "it would always be so."  Ummm... first of all, he was wrong.  Some prophet.  Secondly, does this sound like a man that God would choose as a prophet?  Does he sound like a man who deserves to have a university named after him?  Brigham Young was a horrible excuse of a human being.

We now know enough about science and biology to realize that skin color is simply genetic.  The closer to the sun you are, the more melanin you have in your skin to protect you from the harmful effects of the sun.  It's easy to see, isn't it?  After all, this is how people get sun tans in the summer...

It makes me wonder... If the Church still followed this outrageous doctrine and I went to Maui on vacation and came back with a killer tan, would they assume I did something wrong?  Did I become cursed with dark skin?  It's laughable, isn't it?  Yet people are willing to trust that these men were acting on the will of God and make excuses for the things they said.  

Not a single person has received an apology for the racist comments and doctrine, and they never will.  Apologizing would require them to admit they were wrong, and if they were wrong then, they can be wrong now.  Their goal is to make people trust them and obey them no matter what, and apologizing would raise the eyebrows of believing members.  It's clear to anyone who looks beyond the surface that they can't be trusted at all.

Women in the church are far from equal.  It's one of the main reasons I decided to resign on election day...

I personally believe that this started with Joseph Smith.  Let's face it... he was a charming man who convinced people he was a prophet of God... and he loooooved the ladies.  He had the power and the charm to convince people that God commanded him to take more than one wife.  Women became objects required to reach the Celestial Kingdom...

Polygamy was another doctrine that was dropped because they were forced.  The United States Government demanded that the Church stop plural marriage if Utah was to become a state.  Even after this "revelation" came, plural marriages were still taking place in secret.  So much for that article of faith claiming to obey the law, huh?

Aside from the issue of women being treated like objects, things to be collected, the Church clearly broke the law.  Polygamy of any kind anywhere, was illegal... and most of the church's claims of persecution came from people objecting to this practice.  Young girls were being married off to much older men, and it pissed a lot of people off... as it should.  It had nothing to do with Satan trying to bring down the "one true church" at all.  It was their own actions that brought the trouble.  It's a lovely little faith-promoting spin they put on it, isn't it?

Anyway... back to the issue.

Women are far from equal in the church.  It starts with the Priesthood.  The Church claims that men should be allowed to hold the priesthood, while women cannot.  Why?  I mean, is there really a decent reason?  Just 'cause I'm a girl?

If the church were a business (and they are, but thats another topic for another day) women would be really pissed off about this.  For example, lets say an employer gave certain benefits to only men.  Would that be right?  Hell no!  Yet, when the Church does it and claims it's the way God wants it, everyone takes their word.

I just don't see the logic or reason in this.  It makes no sense, yet people go along with it.  I long for the day that women in the church stand up for themselves and demand the same things that men are allowed to do.

Women cannot be bishop, stake president, or any other high leader.  They are limited to the roles priesthood leaders give them.  Women cannot hold a higher calling than a man.  Why?  Are we not as smart?  Not as spiritual?  I mean, there has to be some reason... right?  Once again we are told what our place is, and if you don't obey, there is a price to pay.

Women have no control over church finances or any other buisness the church has.  It is all left to the men.  There is no logical reason for this.  Yet, there is no outcry.

When little boys and girls are growing up in the Mormon faith, they are taught what they should do with their lives.  Men go on missions, girls practice to be stay at home Moms.  It's true.  There are actual classes and lessons to teach teenage girls how to cook, clean, take care of a home, shush a crying baby, and do it all with a smile on her face.  Well, a smile and a bottle of Prozac.  This isn't something they did in the past.  It's going on right now.  It's something out of a 50's movie.

Every time I get angry and rant about this, I have to add this disclaimer:

There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home mother... or a stay at home father.  That's the thing.  Gender determines your entire life in the church, and fitting into that role that cast you in might make you very unhappy.  It's not really fair to a young woman who wants a career, or doesn't want to have children.  This happened to me.  I felt guilty for too long for not following my "Heavenly Father's Plan."  It wasn't until I realized it was a load of crap that I felt good about myself... and that is a shame.  I beat myself up for way too long.

Try explaining to a little girl why she can't pass the sacrament on Sunday.  Try explaining to a young mother why she can't bless her own child, or even be in the circle of the prayer.

There is no equality.  None.  Anything said to dispute that is lip service.  Actions speak louder than words, and they haven't changed, have they?

Now to the equality issue that bothers me the most...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has asked it's members to donate time, money and talents to ban gay marriage.  The church claims that they are "protecting the family."

Since when does the Mormon Church, or anyone else for that matter, get to decide what is or isn't a family?  What right do they have to limit the rights of people that don't even belong to their faith?

The church spends a lot of time talking about testimonies and how important they are, so I would like to share mine:

I have been blessed with friends of all colors, gender, and sexual orientation.  I love all of my friends equally, and they deserve the same chance at happiness and success that I do.  I wouldn't be who I am today, without them.

A person cannot decide to be gay or straight.  It's just a part of who they are... just like eye color or skin color.  It's not something that can be changed, and it's definitely not something that should be changed.  

Many claim that homosexuality is a sin, and you know what?  It's your right to think that... but it's not your right to make that decision for everyone else.  Two grown people who fall in love and choose to spend the rest of their lives together should be able to get married.  You don't have to like it, you don't have to love it, but you have to accept it.  They are not hurting you, or your old fashioned view of your family.  They are just living their life, and you have no right to control that.

Everyone on this planet deserves happiness as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others.  That is exactly what the Mormon Church is doing.  Why do they feel they have the special right to tell everyone else how to live?

One more thing I would love to bring up...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints says it is doing this for moral reasons.  I, personally, believe the practice of baptism for the dead is immoral.  If they get to pick and choose what others should do, they should get a taste of their own medicine.

How would they feel if a large group got together to bad baptistm for the dead?  We could get a giant phone network going... couldn't we?  Span out and spread the word...

Just sayin...

I would like to ask those who agree with what I had to say, to add their letter to the signingforsomething.org website letting the leaders of the Mormon Church know what they are doing is wrong.  

We can't stand by and do nothing.  We can't.

Andee

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I have used this cartoon before, but it fits the subject... don't you think?

I have mentioned before that roomie and I work at the same place.  It was pretty convenient because we could car pool and save money on gas (that and I don't have my own car...).  For the record, I have never mentioned where we work, and I don't plan to.  Just in case anyone ever wants to track me down like a psycho.

Yesterday, something really messed up happened at work... at least, I think so...

To explain what happened, I will give out a name that is a complete alias to the person's actual name to hide the identity of the person and help with the location of work.  Maybe I am being a little paranoid, but I think it's important.  We will call the other employee Mark.

Mark came up to roomie last week and asked if he could work some of roomie's shift.  Mark needed the money for something, and roomie has been burned out at work and felt he could use the time off.  They filled out the paperwork to switch the shift around, it was signed by a supervisor and changed on the master schedule.  Roomie was to work the first two hours of the shift, and Mark would come in a work the remaining 6.

Well, Mark called in sick, and roomie got screwed.  When word reached people that Mark called in, a couple of our superiors came over to tell him that it wasn't his responsibility to finish the shift, and that he had nothing to worry about.  20 minutes later they changed their mind.  He had to stay even though the paperwork was filed, and it was approved.

Roomie and I had plans to take the kittens to the vet, and it's not like we could just cancel the appointment because there was a 24 hour cancelation policy... we would be charged for the 3 cat visit whether we were there or not.  It was a  horrible position to be in, and we were both pretty pissed off about it.

We felt that the managers involved were not showing respect for our time.  I understand that they needed people to work, but that shouldn't be on roomie's shoulders... it should be on theirs.  It wasn't his fault, and he did everything that was asked of him.

Well, roomie told the manager that we had to take the cats to the vet, and that it would take a while.  The manager told him to be back at a certain time, and with the length of the vet visit that timeline was impossible.  No matter what we did, we were screwed.  Roomie and I left work and took care of the vet visit.  By the time we were done, roomie was stewing over the events at work, and became so mad that he decided not to go back.  Some might think that was a wrong decision to make, but he felt he should make a stand.  I agreed with him.  

This morning he was still fuming and he quit.  

I know, I know... quitting wasn't really a smart thing... but it was kind of the last straw for him. There were other things that occurred in the past that were in play as well.    He was mad as hell and he wasn't going to take it anymore.

I went back to work like normal, and people were asking me what happened to make him quit.  I thought it was perfectly obvious what made him quit, but I decided to stay out of it completely because it might put me in a bad light for the people I work for.  I have to say I am pretty disappointed that it happened.  If it happened to him, it could happen to anyone... right?

It makes me wonder what would happen if someone called in sick during the time I requested off for the ExMormon conference next weekend.  Would they call me up and tell me to come into work or else?

They also have a habit of telling people they can't call in sick.  If you are sick, you are sick.  I have no idea if there is a law about this sort of thing, but when someone says they CAN'T come into work, they should respect it.  Shit happens.  We all have to deal with it.

What would you guys do in this situation?  

Don't worry, we will be fine.  Roomie has money is savings to cover his half of rent, so we should be okay... it's just the principal.  Ya know?

Andee

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I decided to share some of the Autumn online goodies I have desperately wanted to try. Unfortunately I am slightly poor at the moment, so these are just things I dream about.  They look good, don't they?

Cinnamon Apple Pie

A Granny Smith apple dipped in our homemade caramel, dunked in silky white chocolate and dusted with cinnamon and sugar. This tastes just like a slice of Apple Pie with ice cream. Briefly warm it in your microwave for a warm apple pie flavor.  $7.99

Tiny Pecan Pies

Little in size only, these miniature versions of our buttery pecan pies are loaded with flavor, and pecans! Each box contains six Tiny Pies.  $28.95

Chocolate Covered Nutter Butter

A unique blend of a tasty nutter butter cookie and our signature chocolate.  $15.95

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Some of my favorite Mormon and religion related quotes... hope you like them.  If you have any to add, please do!

I knew someone who took more than one piece of bread on Fast Sunday if they had been broken too small . Excused himself by saying `He could never get enough of Jesus`. You can`t argue with that. - 04/16/2008 - by copolt

Mormonism isn't a religion, it's a Joseph Smith fan club. - 12/10/2006 - dick

When I was on my mission in Argentina my companion and I decided to perform a test to determine the validity of the "spirit". Some church members asked us to sing a church hymn in English so they could feel the spirit. Little did they know the song we sang to them was "Sweet Child of Mine" from Guns and Roses. After the song they were in tears and thanked us for bringing the spirit into their home. In summary I guess the Lord likes heavy metal too!! - 11/26/2007 by Kevin74

Just imagine if Old Joe was around for the Tomb of King Tut. We'd have "The Book of The Brother of Abraham". "The Book of Abraham's Dog", "The Book of Abraham's Cooking", and my personal favorite: "Abraham's Hieroglyphics for Dummies". - 09/09/2006 - Webz

"I am just so fricken happy to be one of those NOT worthy to attend and NOT still stuck in the church. I will be on the free side of the temple, the sane side of the temple, the normal side, wearing normal clothes! yee-haw." - 05/22/2005 - by Beaglie

I have always found real Mormon history to be the most "anti-Mormon" literature out there. - 04/08/2005 - danboyle

There is more evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives than exists that he saw God and Jesus in 1820. - 04/06/2005 - Deconstructor

Mormonism can only exist in an information vacuum. - 03/23/2005 - Polygamy Porter

Apparently God needs to invest in some "Human Resources" help, He's doing a lousy job screening job applicants for prophet. - 02/15/2005 - Scott Tippetts

"One man's religious icon is another man's underwear". - 04/25/2004 - hermanuno

Eight million inactive Mormons can't be wrong. - 04/24/2004 -Stray Mutt

The LDS Corporation doesn't do apologies, only apologetics. - 03/29/2004 -blabber

Sometimes it just feels good to disrespect something that's disrespected you for so long! - 03/01/2004 - jlorz

Thank God Jesus never wanted me for a sunbeam. - 04/27/2004 - anon

If you believe an angel delivered golden plates to Joseph Smith, you'll believe anything. - 10/18/2003 - Thomas Murphy

Arguing with True Believing Mormons and drunks is like trying to teach a pig to sing: It accomplishes nothing and annoys the pig. - 10/20/2003 - Meow of the Recovery from Mormonism bulletin board

As they say, you can leave the Church but the Church can't leave you alone. - 07/18/2003 - Steve Benson

The fact that Mormonism has to have Fast and Testimony meetings every month should be an indication that people have to continually convince themselves of the veracity of the faith. - 07/07/2003 - Shakjula

The Mormon Church is a mind-controlling cult that, when you describe it as such, offends those whose minds are controlled. - 12/30/2002 - Steve Benson

It's a damn good thing I was born in the church, cause I sure as hell would never have joined it of my own volition. - 12/19/2001 - anon

I'm tired of a God who keeps truth so well hidden that so few seem to find it. - 05/09/2000 - Simon

It isn't that I have rejected God; it's simply that God and I have never met. - 01/21/2000 - anon

Earlier this season in the National Football League, several players used the "throat slash" as a way to celebrate scores or other big plays. The NFL banned these as disturbing and violent. I thought that was funny, since thousands of good little Mormon men & women did this daily in the pre-1990 temple ceremony, but the NFL had the sense to recognize it as barbaric. - 01/20/2000 - SwedenDC

The LDS Church abuses the word "testimony". In court, a testimony is giving what you know based on your observation. It is not a plant or a pet or something that "grows" and needs to be worked on. In fact, working on your testimony in a legal context could be perjury! If you view an accident, you testify on it based on your own personal account, not by reading other statements and weighing them against your own. Building a testimony sounds somewhat illegal to me. - 01/18/2000 - SwedenDC

An investigator - who seems to be very sympathetic to the Mormon message - commented that Joseph Smith was very likely a true prophet because true prophets have always been hated and persecuted, and Joseph Smith certainly was hated and persecuted. So...

- True prophets are persecuted;
- Joseph Smith was persecuted;
- Therefore Joseph Smith was a true prophet. 

I suggested to him that we could also then reason as follows: 

- Liars, scoundrels and con-men are persecuted;
- Joseph Smith was persecuted;
- Therefore Joseph Smith was a liar, scoundrel or con-man.

He didn't get it. I am going to suggest that he get baptized and start paying and obeying. - 01/17/2000 - Richard Packham

A home teacher sat in our living room once and with all seriousness stated that they had traced their genealogy back to Adam. We really like this particular man, although he is a bit ingenuous, but my non LDS husband sat there with a straight face and said, "That's interesting, ... we are descended from Eve's side of the family." - 10/14/1999 - Amy

When we were in Salt Lake on holiday last year the Hinckster was viewing the new tabernacle building from the observation deck of the Church Admin Building - we happened to be on the other deck so subsequently had to wait 20 minutes for the men in black to vacate. My 9 year old daughter was getting very impatient and commented "Why do we have to hang around for him - he's only a man". Out of the mouths of babes! - 07/23/1999 - Lucy

You can't reason with crazy. - 04/03/008 - proudapostate

"One cannot reason someone out of an opinion they did not arrive at by reason." - 04/02/2006 - anon

WHAT IS THE 14TH ARTICLE OF FAITH ???????????? WE BELIEVE IN MEETINGS : ) : ) : ) : ) - 07/24/2003 - -From One Who Has Been There/Done That

I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure
of. -Clarence Darrow

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