Buddha Belly says, "Yeah... whats up with that?"You know...
People can believe whatever they want. That is the beauty of faith...
You can have faith that the world will end and all the "good" people will join Jesus and God in Heaven while others die a horrible and painful death for being immoral pigs.
You can believe that we will all fly up in a flying saucer and meet the martians who created us in their image as long as we don't harm the planet earth too much.
You can believe you are a prophet of God and that He meets with you nightly to discuss your mutual hatred of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
Hell, you can even believe that God will punish me for showing photos of temple garments and ceremonies. That is absolutely fine.
Care factor? Zero. Believe what you want.
It's when you push that on me and everyone else in the world that it crosses the line. Baptizing me after I am dead, getting a giant workforce to support a ban of gay marriage, and doing these things in shady ways (holocaust victims being baptized after an agreement was made with living survivors and their families, submitting names that are not related to an LDS member in any way, lying in Proposition 8 ads about how gay marriage would affect children in schools) is not cool.
You can say that people accept or deny this baptism in the afterlife all you want. Trust me, I hear it every freaking time I mention how much this bugs me, but it doesn't make it right.
There is a disconnect when baptism for the dead is brought up in conversations between Mormons and non-Mormons. Mormons immediately become defensive and claim that they are not hurting anyone... but I disagree completely... obviously.
A person's religious beliefs are important to the person that they are, and the way they chose to live their lives. By taking this away from them, and performing a baptism into the Mormon church, you are pushing your religion on someone who didn't even get the chance to talk to you about it first.
I have a hard time picturing a God who sits up in heaven and thinks, "If they didn't pick the right religion, they are not allowed up here with the rest of us!" Why would an all-loving and all-knowing deity care about ceremonies and paperwork being completed on earth if the person standing in front of Him was an absolute saint on earth who didn't believe that polygamy was a good thing in heaven, or that the racism evident in the church's past was something they could never agree with?
There are people of the world who existed of which there are no written record. Will these people sit in spiritual limbo forever because these ordinances were not performed for them? Anyone with the belief of a loving God would immediately say, "Of course not!" Why then, do you have to do this for everyone else?
What is the point?
What sense does that make?
Oh, and *I* am the crazy one for thinking that? Please.
Do whatever you want in your religion, and this goes for ALL religions... just don't over-step your bounds and perform ceremonies for people who lived how they wanted to live and made their own life decisions.
I had a conversation with my Mom a couple weeks ago about this, and she mentioned something one of her believing Mormon friends did.
TBM's Mother and Father asked their convert daughter never to perform these ordinances on them. They were proud of the religion and culture they came from.
So, what did believing Mormon do as soon as both parents were dead? Perform baptisms for the dead on them... complete temple work.
How is this not disrespectful? Why is that sooooo hard for Mormons to understand? Take down the thought-blocking message that pops into your mind: "This person is arguing about our religion and that means they are 100% wrong and we are right!"
I love how some members of the church are completely honest about past leaders being wrong and saying things about doctrine that are now thought of as "mistakes." Yet they are so eager to not even consider that baptism for the dead is morally wrong... that this might be one of the "mistakes" they are so willing to forget?
Guess what?
You are really wrong here! Ugh.
Andee
December 31, 2008 at 6:12 AM
Andee,
First off I want to thank you for taking the time to write this blog...I have been following it for the past few days and have been meaning to send you an email with my story of getting in and out of the church, which I am sure you will find hilarious in some aspects :) And like you, people in the church assumed I had sinned or was offended because I didn't come back one day, when in fact I went into my own research and found the truth out myself.
I don't believe that when we reach the pearly gates (if that is the case) that God will turn us away and say "I'm sorry, you were the wrong religion, you arn't welcome here". Growing up I was raised in a Catholic household. I was married in that church (to my non active LDS husband) and we have 2 boys together. My mom and the church told me I had to baptize my babies as soon as possible because they have this idea that if they don't and die they will go to hell. Talk about a bunch of bull..what God would punish an innocent child and lead him or her into an eternity of damnation? And the same goes for anyone in that matter...if you arn't the "right" religion, you won't be rewarded because others had the "right" ceremonies and handshakes...God forbid you should forget those when you die. Who knows what would happen *rolls eyes*
December 31, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Making other people uncomfortable is an inevitable fact of life in a world where people hold differing beliefs and actually give a damn about those beliefs.
I'm sure it "hurts" my Evangelical neighbors when they learn that I believe in the Great Apostasy.
I'm sure it "hurts" Arabs in Egypt when you point out that their religious culture is oppressive toward women.
I'm sure it "hurts" Mormons when you mock their underwear call their prophet a pedophile.
Tough beans.
December 31, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Kelly,
Thanks for the comment! Feel free to shoot me an email if you want to! I'd love to hear your story!
It's amazing how much information is kept from the believing members of the church, isn't it? I am still in awe of how little most of my friends and family knows about the religion they belong to. It makes me go cross-eyed.
Andee
December 31, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Seth,
Ahh, I knew I would hear from you on this one.
One thing...
Joseph Smith was a pedophile. 14 year old girls, even at his time in history, was unheard of and wrong. How you justify that in your mind is beyond me.
Andee
December 31, 2008 at 6:05 PM
Andee, awesome! I am going to try to shoot you an email soon. :)
Seth-
"I'm sure it "hurts" Mormons when you mock their underwear call their prophet a pedophile."
Truth hurts, doesn't it? Why does the church paint JS as a man who is next to God himself when there is documented history of actions God himself has condemned man to do (i.e adultery)?? This isn't history from "anti-mormons" but people CLOSEST to him. This may be normal to you (I don't know you, so I can judge your being) but when you grow up in the church (and I see this when my DH's nieces and nephews) they paint a pretty picture of how good the religion is. Every testimony Sunday I would hear the SAME phrase from each child about how they believe JS is a prophet...it makes me sick now that I know the true man he really was. And yes, he very well could be a pedophile...It is a pure myth that 19th-century American girls married at age 14!!
Here is one testimony from many I could find:
"Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this."
- Joseph Smith's close confidant and LDS Church First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 1887
Some prophet...so Christ-like.
December 31, 2008 at 7:12 PM
Kelly,
Good points!
Another thing that burns me is the fact that their EXCUSE (I capitalize that because there are no excuses for what he did) is that he was "just a man" and not speaking as a prophet when he went through these actions.
It gives every single prophet an excuse to do whatever they want and still be considered a mouthpiece of God.
Another thing is that a good portion of these men didn't really claim any prophecy. Why should we love and revere them as prophets if they haven't proved themselves as prophets? IMO, they have proven the opposite by making claims and doctrine choices that were later tossed aside.
Lets face it, if you are a prophet of God, you should know better!
If God wanted to pick someone to restore a church, why would he pick someone who would do and say the horrible things past prophets did and said? If God wanted us to trust and follow these men with complete obedience, He would have chosen more wisely.
Andee
December 31, 2008 at 8:53 PM
I guess we could talk about the polygamy issue... although it seems a bit off topic from the original post.
I didn't bring up Joseph's child brides to have an argument over it. I just brought it up to make the point that you are going to offend people when you have strong opinions and beliefs. It's no different with temple baptisms.
I'm sure people do find it hurtful.
Tough.
No one made you queen of the dead to decide what they do or do not get to do with THEIR afterlife.
If dead grandma Jones wants to sign up in the hereafter, that's frankly none of your business. It's her own choice and I don't see why anyone living gets a veto on her own free choices.
December 31, 2008 at 10:31 PM
Awesome blog! Can I post a link to it on mine?
December 31, 2008 at 10:59 PM
Seth,
Oh, goody! Can we!?
Big difference between polygamy and baptism for the dead. Wanna know what that is? You don't have a person's consent when performing a baptism after they have died.
Oh, and I never once claimed to be "queen of the dead." Where the hell did that come from? Getting a little defensive are we? Shocking.
Again, you are blocking the obvious.
Andee
December 31, 2008 at 10:59 PM
The Marcheses,
Of course you can! Thanks!!
Andee