An online buddy made this (thank you Draconis for letting me share this).
Reading some of the threads here last night made me dream about Joseph Smith doing a quiz on pre-Columbian history. When I woke up this morning I had to whip this up because I kept chuckling to myself about it. I'm sure someone could make a better quiz than this, but remember that I was still a bit groggy when I made this:
Love it!
Hahaha!
Edited to add: The image is pretty small, for a better size, click here....
December 30, 2008 at 1:08 AM
Not to argue with your main point, but to offer a couple minor clarifications.
1. The Book of Mormon TEXT never mentions "coins" at all.
The word "coinage" is only found in the chapter heading for a certain chapter. Those were added by Bruce R. McConkie in the 1970s or 80s in an attempt to be helpful to readers. He's the one who came up with the idea that the Nephite monetary system was coins.
If you read the text itself, there is no reason to believe it's talking about coins. It instead describes a system of weights and measures.
2. Pre-Columbian barley actually has been uncovered by archeologists in the Americas.
On the horse bit, there's actually good reason to believe there were horses in the Americas before the Spaniards arrived. But since nothing has really been proven or disproven on this score, I'll leave that one alone.
OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
December 30, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Seth,
Um... sure... the word "coin" isn't used, but that is simply a technicality. Look in Alma II:
11:5 Now the reckoning is thus -- a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.
(11:5-19) Now the reckoning is thus -- a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold. A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver. A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold ... ... Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.
11:6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.
11:7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.
11:8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.
11:9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.
11:10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.
11:11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.
11:12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.
11:13 And an onti was as great as them all.
11:14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning
11:15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.
11:16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.
11:17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.
11:18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.
11:19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.
It's obvious to everyone with half a brain what is being discussed... c'mon.
December 30, 2008 at 9:45 AM
No, it is not obvious.
What is being described is a system of weights and measures linked to quantities of precious metals. Based on weight of grain as you see in verse 7.
This is pretty-much the same system used by pre-Babylonian Israelites where the basic monetary unit was a shekel which refers to a certain weight of grain.
Read closely. There is zero reason to believe that any of this is talking about stamped pieces of metal (which is what "coins" are). When Zeezrom later offers Amulek "six ontis of silver" he is merely offering Amulek a weighted portion of silver. Not six coins.
Free your mind.
December 30, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Seth,
I find it amusing you use the words "free your mind." You should take your own advice.
You are doing any mental gymnastics necessary to keep your church true. If you just look at the FACTS you will clearly see it isn't.
Free your mind.
December 30, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Oh, and just so you don't think I changed the subject to not discuss the matter at hand, I would like to add that nearly every single leader I had in the church told me this was COIN. Same will thousands of other people. Are you saying they were lying or wrong? If they were wrong, how do you know the leaders now are not going to be wrong in the future?
We can fight over the coin issue, but that doesn't fix the hundreds of other off-the-wall and impossible things that Joe describes in his so-called historical document.
It's not true... it's not what it claims to be. No amount of your denial is going to change that.
December 30, 2008 at 11:22 AM
I specifically included that language because I knew you would find it amusing.
"Are you saying they were lying or wrong?"
I'm saying they were wrong. And Bruce R. McConkie too. It's a logical mistake to make actually. The people who wrote and read the chapter heading were 20th century people with twentieth century assumptions. So of course they naturally read it as coinage.
Could happen to anyone.
"We can fight over the coin issue, but that doesn't fix the hundreds of other off-the-wall and impossible things that Joe describes in his so-called historical document."
Well, probably not in this thread anyway. But despair not - we have all the time in the world ahead of us.
December 30, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Oh sure... as if you will even come close to proving the church is true. Yes, I look forward to it.