This is an example of the emails that are being spread by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All misspellings, punctuation errors and other problems are the original authors fault... not mine. Really. I know I am a horrible speller, but this isn't me. Promise. My comments, as always, will be interjected when I feel like it.I don't know if you're aware of whats going on politically here in California right now, but for the first time in my life I've seen the Church take a stand on a political issue to the extent that we've had Ward gatherings for the past three weeks to physically canvas neighborhoods and make phone calls to registered voters to educate them about the language and affects of Proposition 8.
Wow, that was one long sentence. I thought Brigham Young was good at that, but honey, you put him to shame.
Now, of course we know what is going on politically in the state of California. Duh. It's all over the news, and everyone is talking about it... especially if you are in the church. Your church neighbors are telling you how to vote, your bishop is telling you how to vote... oh, and your email is just another piece of evidence that the church is telling me how to vote. You don't see it that way? Shocking.
I guess I was kind of oblivious to the wider reaching affects that this could have on all church members but found this informative e-mail interesting and decided to forward it to you.
I can think of half a million other things that you are oblivious to, but we won't go there for now. Maybe later. Oh, and I will be the judge on how "informative and interesting" the email is, because I doubt your judgment.
In a recent Sacrament meeting in California, the focus was on amendment 8. (The gay marriage issue.) one of the speakers who was an LDS judge in the area, had statistics that were "mind blowing."Can I ask you a quick question Molly Mormon? Why is it that the focus was on limiting the rights of a group of people and not on loving thy neighbor or preaching the gospel? Why not talk about Jesus and his wonderful teachings? Why not share love instead of hate? Just sayin'.
I also love how you used parenthesis around the words "The gay marriage issue" as if you were whispering the words so quietly as to not let your kids hear the word "gay." Give me a break.
For example, in Boston, PA, (where gay marriage is no le gal,) the Catholic charities have closed their doors because the state has required them to allow adoptions to same sex couples, and they refused. They are a large and worthwhile charity with great power in the state and they were overruled.
Sweetie... sweetie...
All charities should be equal to everyone, yes? I mean, lets pretend for a minute that everyone in the world thought the Mormon church was wrong, and those practicing it were immoral. Just for fun...
Okay, so lets pretend you want to have lots and lots of kids, but you can't. You would be a wonderful parent, but no one will let you adopt because you are a Mormon. Would you like that? Probably not.
No church should have power in the state. The separation of Church and state is something that should exist but rarely does... especially in the state of Utah. You see, charity belongs to all of God's children, whether you, the Catholic church or the Mormon Church see it or not. I find it telling that you don't. Do you even know God?
A Methodist church has lost it's tax exempt status because a minister refused to perform a marriage of a same sex couple (they were not of his congregation.)
The Methodist Church should lose it's tax exempt status if they are not treating everyone as equals. That is how it works. The Mormon Church will hopefully learn that lesson soon. No church has a right to give certain rights to certain people. One day, when you are on the outside of that circle, you will see how unjust and unfair it is.
A physician who refused to do fertility treatments on a same sex couple because of religious reasons was sued, lost, and the state is requiring him to treat everyone as equals.
OH! THE HORROR!
The state is requiring him to treat everyone as equals? Where will this insanity end?!
You are off your fucking rocker if you don't think this guy was out of line by denying his services just because of their sexual orientation. It's a bigoted thing to do. Are you sticking up for him? Looks that way. God help you, honey.
Remember a few decades ago when African-Americans were trying to get equal treatment? Remember how they had to use different water fountains, entrances, and had to sit in the back of the bus? This isn't any different. Those with dark skin can't change who they are, and SHOULDN'T change who they are. Same goes with those in the gay and lesbian community. They can't change, they shouldn't have to feel as if they have to change. They are productive members of society who pay the same taxes and work the same jobs. They deserve the same benefits that you do, honey, and if you can't open your mind enough to see that, I pity you.
Remember when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints had to be forced to give them the same priesthood that it gave the white men or THEY would lose their tax exempt status? No? Oh, of course you were never taught about that. Look it up. Please, and thank you.
Our schools will be required to teach, starting in kindergarten that marriages make up many different combinations. The consequences are horrible.Eh? I don't see what is so bad about that... what is horrible?
What in the name of God is so horrible about teaching kids that everyone in the world is accepted and treated equally? It shouldn't matter if their families are made up with a mommy and a daddy, a grandmother and an aunt, or two mommies... it's the same.
By teaching kids that families should be one-size-fits-all-cookie-cutter-fairy-land-families, you are singling out every child that lives with his grandparents, his aunt and uncle, or the young men who adopted him. You are making these children feel as if there is something wrong with them and the family they are in. That is really, really messed up.
Would you teach kids not to hang out with other kids who have less traditional families? Would you not let them go over to play at their house? Why? Are you worried they would "turn gay?"
The ignorance is obvious, and THAT is horrific.
Directly tied to ALL of this is our right to continue to go to the Temple. If gay marriage is supported by the government, then those who are same-sex married, who are 'LDS' and legally recognized as married by the government can sue to be married in the temple.&nbs p; It is my opinion that the church will not bend on this issue, and our rights to go to the temple will be in jeopardy.
Sweetie, you can go to your temple, put on the silly clothes and do whatever the hell you want. The trouble starts when your church, the LDS Church, singles out a group of people and tells them they can't share in the "wonderful temple experience." I use quotations because we all know it's a load of crap anyway.
If you lose your temple, it's because your church isn't treating people as equals, not because the gay people are bad and evil. Open your eyes and examine it for what it is. Please. You could learn a thing or two about love and respect if you think your church is right in this case.
AND goodbye to those religious tax-deductions. Tithing, fast offerings, etc. We will lose our tax-exemption status if the government legally forces the church to support same-sex marriage.
They should have lost their tax-exempt status a looooooong time ago, and if there is one thing I have learned about the church I grew up in, it's that nothing matters more to them than money. They will have a revelation of some kind, and their minds will be changed. Just like in the past when the government threatened to do the same thing in 1978. Times are changing, and the church doesn't like change. Tough shit.
These effects are far-reaching! I hope no one is upset by this email, I would not want to offend anyone, but I believe this issue is not a political issue at all, but a moral issue that affects all of society.
Well, you have offended me, and you will continue to offend me until you stop trying to take rights away from people you don't even know.
I agree. The effects of banning gay marriage are far-reaching. It tells young men and women that they are not equal, respected, and they don't deserve the same right to happiness as you do. Morally, that is wrong, don't you agree?
What kind of morals do you have if you think it's perfectly fine to limit someone's right to happiness? Wake up and have some coffee. Please.
The Proclamation on the family clearly gives a warning voice on this matter. I pray that this issue on the ballots will overturn the gay marriages occurring right now in that state, and help prevent other states from adopting this stance. I believe that it is important to support and defend traditional marriage, home and family.The Proclamation of the Family is something that Mormons believe in. Mormons. Not everyone else. Why are you going to force a group of people who are not of your faith to abide by your church's laws? Is that something you feel is right? Guess what? It's not.
While you are praying that the marriages of men and women who were married in the state of California are overturned because of your beliefs, you are forgetting that they have not hurt you, or your precious family beliefs. Let them be.
There is no way in my mind that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is right, true, or has the right to treat people the way it has in the past. I will say one thing, I WILL NOT PRAY THAT YOUR MARRIAGE IS OVERTURNED BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR BELIEFS. That is true morality. That is something you should learn.
Another friend says that her relatives in Sweden are even watching what goes on in California. Friends in Canada are watching. The whole world is watching what happens.
Yes, they are... and I hope they see the state of California stand up and do what is right.
You have a lot to learn, Molly Mormon, not only about this issue, but about your religion in general. If you only knew what they stood for.
Andee
P.S. If you don't want to take my word for it, read this...
October 16, 2008 at 12:57 AM
I am not Mormon, neither do I really support Prop 8-- mostly because I am a libratarian and relevant only because I am a Californian resident and will thus vote on it.
I have been reading your blog because I was interested in learning more about Mormonism and a google search pulled your blog when I googled "temple garmets"
Any how, I'd like to point out a few points of clarity that might make your readers understand the issue even further:
A. Prop 8 doesn't actually challenge tax-exempt status, infact the court decision was binding only for civil marriage (i.e. the papers you file that make you legally wed) it has no bearing on which denomination actually preforms ceremony which are only legally binding if done by a state recognized officiant. Specifically the court ruling states “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”
I take issue with you stating that churches should have to lose there tax status if they don't marry people.... this is their prerogative and right or wrong our country guarantees the right to make that choice. I would not vote for any proposition that threatens that right, and I think Mormons are crazy.... but they still have a right to their beliefs.
I also take issue with education of children even if deemed "stupid" by other should remain the prerogative of the parent, regardless of if you think the beliefs are bigoted. You will have the right to teach your children acceptance about marriage or homosexuality... both sides must choose tolerance in order to survive, if someone legitimately thinks something is wrong, how can they not vote there moral beliefs.
With regards to catholic charities, well I don't have information on the case, but if a child was rendered to Catholic Charities in the effort to find catholic parents, then they have a right to discriminate against who receives the child....
Basically, I think you are a gifted writer and have made some eloquent points about the Mormon church that I have found interesting and informative. I'd like to see you turn that passion for defense into making arguements that defend our rights and the rights of our country without mocking others. I think putting people on the defensive doesn't help anyone see others thoughts.
I realize this is your blog, so take it with a grain of salt and all, but I think you have a lot of insight to offer and can do it without the condescension.
Just an opinion though, have a great day.
October 16, 2008 at 3:00 AM
Mormons have one tool right now, fear. Science, experience, fairness, etc is on the side supporting same sex marriage. Fear is the only way the church can exert control over anyone and get people do what they want.
Somehow, I don't saying "we are bunch of old men that are behind in the times, refuse to pay attention to science and have to find some reason to convince you the world will end or you won't give us your money" will work.
October 16, 2008 at 8:20 AM
anonymous,
I was just trying to say that the Mormon church should have to follow the law, as with any church. If you are not following the law, you should lose your tax exempt status.
As I mentioned in the article, the Mormon Church is more of a business than anything else, and they should have lost their tax exempt benefits a long time ago. If a church isn't treating people as equals, that is wrong. Sorry if you see it differently.
You can teach your kids whatever you want, but teaching them to look at families as being one man one woman only is only going to hurt them.
The reason I posted with "condescension" is because I am still technically a member of this church and I am pretty pissed off about the lies I was told by the leaders of this church.
I will tell you what I tell everyone else...
I have a right to be angry, my feelings are valid, and as you mentioned, this is my blog and I will do what I want.
You have a great day too.
October 16, 2008 at 8:27 AM
Truly Confused,
I couldn't agree more.
The world is changing, thank God, and people all over the world are coming to their senses over this issue. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.
Andee
October 16, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Sorry Andee,
I didn't mean to sound as though you couldn't be angry. Sounds like you have a lot of reasons to be angry with the mormon church, I am not sure why you are "technically" still a member, perhaps there is a formal process I don't know about.
All I meant to say is... maybe you could also include the salient facts about Prop 8 on the blog. Namely that it doesn't affect church tax status or education... all it really does is give people who want to get married the right to get married.
It doesn't affect how churches or schools... and you will retain the right to do as you morally see fit. Which might help people understand why it is okay to vote NO, even if they are christian, muslim, catholic, et al. you won't be condemning your beliefs.
Again, I am sorry if I offended you at all, it really wasn't my intention!
October 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Actually, there is little risk at all of any church losing tax-exempt status for not marrying gays. Churches, as private institutions are not required to be inclusive. They actually have the right to be racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. The US government absolutely cannot force churches to accept gay marriage or gay equality. It cannot and will not. Churches can (as far as I'm aware) only really lose their tax exemption if they endorse specific political candidates. They rules for churches are looser than for other non-profits, and I so support amending the laws so that churches have to obey the same rules for keeping tax exemption that other non-church organisations do, but so far, the LdS church hasn't quite stepped over the line, and it would never knowingly do that, because it's tax exemption is too lucrative.
It's gross, but part of free speech. And I support it.
There is NO risk of mormons not being able to attend the temple. That is just absolutely ridiculous fear-mongering.
While I agree that charities should be accepting of all people, the catholic adoption agency voluntarily stopped providing services, rather than have any sort of legal conflict (though it is not even clear if there would have been one).
Most of these concerns are the same ones other proponents of prop 8 have invented. They are easily shown to be lies or half-truths. An LDS BYU professor has written a refutation of them (and of the crazy claims of the church, lol) and here is a link to it.
October 16, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Craig,
Thanks for climbing into my brain and writing out what I wanted to say but was unable to. This is why I call you a super-hero. It's weird how you can do that. :)
Andee
October 16, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Thanks for climbing into my brain and writing out what I wanted to say but was unable to.
I love the mental picture that just invoked.
It's weird how you can do that. :)
Yeah, I think we're alike and think alike in a lot of ways.
October 16, 2008 at 8:14 PM
Andee, I think the world is changing very quickly. I don't know if this election will cause it, but I don't think it is too far off. When prop 22 came around last time, it had A LOT of support to fight gay marriage. Now, it is about equal. If it doesn't pass this time, it will the next time.
I don't see this at too different than the civil rights movement. People were beyond offended at the thought of interracial marriage. Now it is accepted. There are some exceptions still, but most of society doesn't think twice.
Yes, mormons have the right to believe anything they want. Someday people are going to look at their stance on gay marriage and not want to be invovled. The church has softened it's stance on homosexuality. Think of the Miracle of Forgiveness-homosexuality is caused by selfishness and masturbation? Not even! (every man and most women would be gay!!!). On a side note, you notice that book does not talk about lesbians-cause they didn't think they existed.
20 years from now, this will be a non-issue.
October 16, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Craig,
You are right, we are alike and we think alike. I loved that Hayden Pantierre (I didn't come close to spelling that right) video you had on your blog... I actually had a coughing fit because I was laughing so hard.
Thank you for being you!
Andee
October 16, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Truly Confused,
You are right, I really know that. If it's not this time, it's soon. I just really hope it's this time.
Thank you for being you as well! Feel better!!!
Andee