Windy Sydney

June 2, 2008 at 5:53 PM

Hello Sydney love,

I am here to tell you as a born again christian and a dear friend that there is a God.

Because the heavens tell of the glory of God psalm 19-1

And also because the glory of God was seen by Moses exodus 33:18-23.

Because God is our creator who made the world and everything in it genesis 1.

The glory of God appeared in a cloud exodus 16-10.

So you see Sydney friend that there is a true and living God the great God of Israel.

And these are all visible signs of God's greatness.

In the temple in heaven, revelation 15-8.

June 3, 2008 at 5:53 AM

Donangelo, why do you accept the vision of God to Moses and can't accept that perhaps he visited JS?

Syd,

Don't feel sorry for us because what we Mormon's do we do because we have agency and have chosen already to follow the teachings of the gospel. You may say brainwashed whatever, but essentially, if it makes you happy, what does it matter to you?

In the end of the day, I think you summed up nicely 'When can we stop feeling sorry for each other?' I think that we both feel the same way about each other's position. We respect it and can accept that we have chosen paths that according to what we believe. In the end of the day, the bickering and the 'rational' debate acccounts for nothing if there is no respect.

So I say, I don't feel sorry for you Sydney....but I do think you are wrong...respectfully.

June 3, 2008 at 9:14 AM

Hey Nicko,

I do not feel sorry for you, because you actually know of some of these issues and you have the ability to check it out on your own. People in Utah and Idaho are scared to do it.

You would be surprised of how many people don't know about the translation, or the Book of Abraham, even the many, many wives (some of which were 14 years old) of Joseph Smith. People should have all the facts to make a good decision for themselves.

There *are* people that I know of that are unhappy in the church, and don't know these things happened. Feeling sorry for them isn't exactly the correct term to use, I would say I just feel for them.

It's those unhappy people (like I was) that I feel for, not the ones who are truly happy.

June 3, 2008 at 9:14 AM

Oh, and I think you are wrong... but respectfully. :)

June 3, 2008 at 10:31 AM

Look nicko,

I can not accept the false teachings and visions of joseph smith.

because joseph smith was a pervert and a monster and a false prophet.

That is why I can not.

Because for me it is all about the truth.

And moses was a man of God and that is why I believe moses.

And nicko even though you think that you are happy in the mormon cult.

Nicko you are only fooling and decieving your own self.

Because lies produce bondage and corruption.

And when you are in bondage nicko there can be no happiness.

You mormons so called happiness is all a illusion.

Because if you love someone tell them the truth to set them free.

And that is why I am here to tell you mormons who are in bondage the truth about the false prophet joseph smith.

To help keep you guys from going to hell according to holy bible scriptures.

let God be true and every man a liar romans 3-4

And nicko I must also tell you according to biblical scriptures you are wrong nick and sydney is right just like I know I am right.

Because it is not what we say it is what God says and command.

June 3, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Hey Sydney dear,

The reason the lds cult try to keep these facts and dirt about joseph smith hid is because the lds cult know.

If people knew before they joined that joseph smith was a killer a polygamist a molester a liar and also a racist criminal they would never join the mormon cult it's that simple sid.

June 3, 2008 at 11:02 AM

You see nicko,

True prophets and men of God do not act and behave the way that joseph smith and my former mormon bishop do or did.

Because true men of God are holy men of God.

Because the bible tells us to be holy for God is holy.

And nicko there is nothing or was holy about joseph smith or my former mormon bishop.

June 4, 2008 at 3:30 AM

Oh please Donangelo you mean to tell me that you think JS is unholy just because he practiced polygamy??? come off it have you not read the OT???

I don't think I'll even bother citing it all...And check Moses life...or Isaacs...or Jacobs...or Abrahams....or what about Paul's teachings...

You've got nothing mate, just slanderous comments based on hatred for this church. At least Sydney and I can disagree respectfully...you can't even do that...

And Sydney, I'm glad we can smile about our disagreements....it makes me laugh when I see comments like that....respectfully... :)

June 4, 2008 at 10:44 AM

Well nicko chew on this,

Not only was joseph smith a polygamist who married and had under age sex partners who was 14 years of age.

But joseph smith was also a killer who killed two men right before he died.

So it proves once again that joseph smith was a false prophet.

Because remember the ten commandment that says thou shall not kill.

I guess oh joe missed or over looked that commandment that said thou shall not kill.

June 4, 2008 at 10:52 PM

Donangelo,

Again you are preaching something you know nothing about. First of all you assume that 14 years old is 'underage' when the law at that time allowed women at the age of 14 to be married. So how you think that they are underage is slightly beyond me. I do agree they were young and whether Smith actually engaged in Sexual intercourse with them is a matter of conjecture. Simply stating that fact also ignores that he married 60+ year olds...can I just say ew. Was it really for sex? Why marry 60+ year olds? Loads of conjecture, no actual hard evidence of JS saying anything.

And what of the 1843 revelation? Do you mean to tell me that in 1820 JS decided to fabricate a story of the Saviour and God visiting him just so 23 years later he could dupe a whole bunch of women into having sex with him? Seems a bit out there don't you think.

Second you mention the killing of two men (in self-defense) and then quote the 'ten commandments'. Oh my goodness...do you honestly read the bible? Have you not read from Joshua onwards? So many killings all in the name of the Lord of Israel. Does that make Joshua not a prophet? What about Moses killing the two Egyptians who were wailing on one of his own race? Hmmm self-defence?

And what about Peter in Gethsemene cutting down the guard only to be rebuked by the saviour for doing so? Does that make him not an apostle? You still read his words right?

IF you wanna come at me declaring that Moses, Joshua, Jacob and even Abraham were all holy men because they didn't do what JS did, you have to do a bit better than that I'm sorry..

apologies for taking up so much room Sydney...

June 5, 2008 at 10:31 AM

Nicko,

While I think Donangelo can be extremely out of line at times, I do agree with him about the underage issue. It was NOT common for 14 year old girls to be married at that time. Period. They were way too young, and we all know it. God wouldn't have commanded something like that. Sorry. Won't budge. There are also journals that show how he pressured these girls with their families going to hell if they didn't comply with "God's will."

June 5, 2008 at 10:33 AM

Nicko, Ugh, pressed the "send button a little too quickly."

I don't believe that JS created the church to get women, but there is no denying that he liked the ladies. I think the polygamy issue came about because he had the power and pressure to get his way.

I don't believe in the Bible as historic record, so that is pretty much all I have to say about that.

June 5, 2008 at 12:41 PM

Okay nicko,

Since you want to try and justify joseph smith actions for killing what about these actions.

What about when lds leaders and joseph smith and brigham young
ordered the mountain meadows massacre where many innocent men women and childen were murdered.

It just show how brutal these false prophets and lds leaders were.

By all these innocents that they had killed.

Because the average so called lds member know nothing of these truths.

So nick if you really believe that joseph smith was a prophet and it was okay for him to lie and to decieve and to have under age sexual relations with 14 year old girls.

Then nicko why don't you shout it to the roof top in sacrament meeting and on fast sunday and also in general conference.

And let the people decide what they truly believe about joseph smith and the lds cult once they know the full truth about joseph smith and lds cult history.

The reason you will not is because you know that once people find out the truth that will set them free.

They will leave the mormon cult in droves.

Just like I left and resigned from the mormon cult after learning the truth about the false prophet joseph smith.

because my God the great God of Israel also told me that the mormon cult was not true.

And the great God of ISRAEL also told me that judgement and destruction is coming to the mormon cult and all those who do evil.

So I was wise and I got out.

Because the fear of the lord is the begining of knowledge and wisdom.

June 5, 2008 at 3:41 PM

donangelo...

ugh...my goodness man...first of all do you know anything about what you are saying?? Again you say that it was under age for 14 year olds to be having sexual relations, based on???

Sydney I never said that it was the norm but you can't deny that it was also legal for a woman to married that young whilst these things have changed more recently.

Also, you know that its not the norm everywhere for women to be married beyond the age of 20. For heaven's sake most of Africa still marry in their teens. Does that make them abnormal? Norms are very much culturally specific...you are just looking at things with your 21st C Western Eyes.

Does that mean I think it was right? I dunno..but it seems quite simple to turn around and say that JS was some sexual deviant when he also married 60+ year olds. IF it were me and I was addicted to sex, I wouldn't be marrying 60 year olds...just the 20 year olds. So that argument doesn't fly with me.

Again, do you honestly believe that JS invented the 1820 revelation in order to produce a 1843 revelation allowing him heaps of wives?

Does it change the BoM's validity?

Donangelo, what about people like Joshua? He destroyed and led the people of Israel to destroy millions of people....I can't understand how you could criticize Brigham Young (no JS) and not look at the OT with contempt...

Stop fence sitting and declaring the Mormon church to be illegitimate in the Lords eyes without first checking out the background of the religion you hold dear....

June 5, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Nicko,

The fact that it wasn't illegal doesn't make it right. I can't comprehend how you can defend this. These KIDS were 14!!!! They didn't have a choice! They married him or they went to hell... after all, the prophet said so.

What he did was out of line and morally wrong. There is no defense. God certainly wouldn't have asked him to hurt little KIDS like that. Never. He abused his power and authority, and he got away with too much. Someday people will see him for what he really was.

June 5, 2008 at 6:24 PM

Well Sydney if you have read Sacred Loneliness, then good for you for coming up with these summations. But I have it as a guess that you have not.

Lets consider then that there are only 2 girls of the age of 14 that are suggested to be among the 31 and that one of these is very questionable (in fact I read a review which suggests that its highly unlikely - but I will also concede that I read another review and another book which does suggest its likely). The author of this book relies heavily on some pretty secondary evidence on this issue.

The other girl Helen Mar-Kimball was approaching the age of 15 when she was married. The author of this book himself declares the ambiguity of whether JS has sexual relations with her or not. But, it should be noted that she was given to JS by her father, not approached the other way around. Essentially, he wanted her to be 'joined' to the Smith family for status and prestige and thus 'offered' her to Smith. Considering that some girls were getting married during this time period for 'status' or 'conspicuous' reasons, its hardly not surprising...but a little distressing (this is one of the reasons I hate Jane Austen novels and the way the are 'romanticised' by our generation. Women were very much subjected in the earlier times with marriage and prestige)

I will confess however that I don't buy into the authors belief that it was unlikely or ambiguous that she had relations with JS. I believe she did..although I'm not sure she ever conceived (in fact if the author is suggesting there is no evidence, then I'm assuming she didn't). She certainly declared that she was 'shocked' by the outcome of the sealing which is more of an indication that she didn't get the social status she expected and the like (which the author shows through direct quotes in the book from her bio)

The other supposed 'teenage' brides were one sealed at 16 (but it has been suggested that this should actually be 18 in reviews), 3 sealed at 17, 3 sealed at 19 (one was 3 months from 20th birthday) and 1 sealed at 20. Although it wasn't the norm and certainly not the medium age for marriage in the US at this time (probably more around 25-26), it still wasn't unheard of nor completely abnormal for 19C women to married at the age of 16 and up. Certainly if you read any Jane Austen book, you'll know that women in these periods were already taught the domicile responsibilities...thank heavens thats over with.

And so we are left to 'guess' what actually happened with these women sexually. Although its obvious that from those who conceived (of which none were the polyandrous women) that JS did have relations with them.

Its all a bit of hearsay and conjecture and unfortunately that is what Historical analysis is all about sometimes. Whilst I am certainly not arguing it didn't happen, I think that if we dig a little deeper, the evidence used is sometimes not as 'hard' as the author would have liked.

And so we are left to decide on what is essentially 'soft' evidence and a bit of theorising. Was polygamy instituted of God or was it JS's own imagination. I honestly think that is the question that cuts to the heart of it all. And if you want to eliminate polygamy, you have to eliminate alot of religions and cultures around the world (Islam, Judaism for instance).

Ok...I think I've written an essay now...but essentially I think that just spouting off and saying he had sex with 14 year olds is problematic. We simply do not know the full story of what happened.

June 5, 2008 at 7:03 PM

Nicko,

You continue to make excuses for something so obviously wrong! He DID marry two 14 year old girls. They were not women, or teenagers... they were GIRLS. He had sex with them, it wasn't just spiritual! There isn't anything "supposed" about it. It's on the church's own geneological website for christs' sake! What he did was wrong! I can't imagine why you think it's okay for this to have happened? How can you think he was a good man when he told these girls to marry them or they and their families will go to hell? It's not something a man of God would do! It's not! I am getting really angry about this, because you can't see it. It's so frustrating. Sorry for being so mad about it, but come on!!!

He sent men off on missions so that he could marry their wives! Hello? That doesn't scream adulterer to you?

Polygamy wasn't commanded by God. Joseph Smith found a way to have his cake and eat it too. Period.

June 5, 2008 at 8:00 PM

Hey Sydney friend,

I thank you very much for connecting the dots for nicko the mormon guy who seem to be slow.

When it comes to comprehending that what joseph smith did with those under age girls who was 14 years old was very wrong and filthy.

And don't forget about the mountain meadows massacre in which joseph smith also played a huge role in those murders of those innocents.

Because Syd you hit the ball right out of the park when you said that the true and living God would have never ordered those little kids to be hurt and abused in such a way.

Because God is love.

Because a matter of fact Sydney Jesus Christ said that.

If one of these little children believe in me,and someone causes that child to sin,it would be better for that person to have a large stone tied around their neck and drowned in the sea matthew 18 6-7

And Syd that is exactly what joseph smith did when he ordered the killing of those innocents and when he sexually abused and molested those 14 year old girls he really hurt them.

So this scripture means that Jesus Christ and the great God of Israel is against the false prophet joseph smith and is also against mormonism.

And all of those corrupt lds leaders.

Let God be true and every man a liar. romans 3-4

Also the holy word of God tells us Syd that if anyone come with another gospel other than the one that our lord and savior Jesus Christ taught then we are to reject them.

So yes Syd you are doing the right thing by rejecting the false prophet joseph smith and all of his doctrines of demons that the holy bible warned us about.

June 5, 2008 at 8:47 PM

Sydney,

You keep saying he had sex with the two 14 year old girls, but again the historical evidence is very vague on this issue. We simply don't know.

As for the wives who were married whilst others (not all) were away on missions, did any of these conceive his children? The answer is no. Do we know if he had relations with them? Of course we don't.

I am not defending what Smith did. I'm of the opinion at this stage of my life that I don't know...but I am merely muddying the water a bit so that we can see the whole picture, not just what someone wrote on their website.

In the end, you make up your own mind Sydney, but I'm explaining to you why I've come to my conclusion. At least you can't say that I've not done my research (which I know you've never said) and provide what is essentially the other side of the argument.

June 5, 2008 at 9:26 PM

Nicko,

Why else would he marry these kids? Lets face it, chances are he had sex with them. Many of the women had sex with him... It sounds to me like you are in denial. You absolutely refuse to believe that JS would do anything like this... but he did. He did.

It's not just from online websites... it's from journals of his wives, it's from family members of these wives.

My mind is definitely made up. So is yours. In my opinion, this guy liked the ladies and used his power to get what he wanted.

Why in the world would God ask him to marry two 14 year olds? Why would he need to pressure these girls by telling them their families would go to hell if they didn't comply? Why did it keep it a secret from Emma for so long if it was from God? It doesn't add up, Nicko... and you refuse to see it.

June 5, 2008 at 9:44 PM

Hmm see that is where we disagree again. I believe that is you who refuses to believe that its not as clear cut as this. Do I believe he engaged with Sexual acts with Helen Mar-Kimball? Yes I do.

But do I believe that is from God or not? I never said that it did or didn't. I'm not in denial about these things at all...I'm merely expressing why it is that I'm not instantly jumping off the church just because I've read somewhere that he had sex with many women.

Its a muddy water issue Syd even you can agree to that. There is just not enough historical evidence at this stage to warrant any clear cut conclusions.

Thats all I am saying...

And in any event...polygamy is part and partial of Christian religion, whether they like it or not. We need to accept therefore that Christianity is not what it claims to be...or it is...

June 5, 2008 at 9:44 PM

donangelo,

I would appreciate it if you could stop from the personal insults from this point on.

Just because Nicko disagrees with us, doesn't mean that he is "slow." I think he is a smart guy with a different point of view. Big difference.

Again, I have to wonder if you are the born again christian that you claim to be when you treat people this way and talk to them like they are stupid.

You go on and on about God and quote scripture verses constantly, yet you feel the need to judge people's character if they don't agree with your beliefs. It's not right.

June 5, 2008 at 9:50 PM

Nicko,

Let me get this straight...

You are not denying that he had sex with the two 14 year old girls, and lied to his own wife about the practice of polygamy for a very long time... but you don't find it morally wrong?

How can you hold Joseph Smith up and call him a prophet of God if he could do these things? It shows of his character that these things happened. You can't help but wonder if the whole thing wasn't a way for him to get power and control.

Polygamy is fine between consenting adults, but what he did was emotionally blackmail these girls into marriage. He isn't the super-good man that the church paints him to be.

You don't think there is anything wrong with that? And if there isn't anything wrong with that, why is the church not being more honest about the truth? Why do so many Mormons not even know this happened?

June 5, 2008 at 9:52 PM

Thanks Syd although I have to disagree with you...I'm not that 'smart' at all ;)...in fact, I'm about as slow as a mule at times. This morning I put my daughters jeans on my son and watched him for like 5 minutes before I realised they were like 3 sizes to big for him...

I once also put Scarlett's (my daughter) nappy on the wrong way...hmmm..the list goes on and on!!!

I'm about as ditzy as they come!!

June 5, 2008 at 9:59 PM

No is that what I'm saying? Not at all. I'm out to lunch at this stage on the polygamy issue. But does that make all the revelations previous to this wrong or false? King David was a righteous man up till he fell..

Now I'm not saying that JS was morally corrupt, but what I am saying is I DON'T KNOW!!! I know a few members who believe in the church but think Polygamy was not of God. The same way I think blacks in the priesthood was a cultural policy rather than doctrine.

IT still doesn't change the fact to me that the BoM is true and that the priesthood of God is real.

What JS did may or may not have been instituted of God....I'm just not sure of this yet.

I'm having a guess that many Mormon's don't know of this issue because the records have never been very complete. Sacred Loneliness (which evidently is written by a believing member who obviously doesn't believe in polygamy) was really one of the first historical coming togethers on polygamy. Bachman (daniel) wrote one too but it wasn't as thorough in my honest opinion.

But again, let me stipulate that I'm not suggesting I'm either way at this stage. However, there is doctrinal efficacy for the implementation of polygamy from the OT onwards. Whether I believe it or not will be something I figure out myself.

June 5, 2008 at 10:14 PM

I'm sorry Sydney,

But what I meant to say is that the holy bible said that in the last days people would call evil good and good evil.

All I am saying Syd is that it seems to me that nicko is calling joseph smith evil behavior with those 14 year old girls a good thing thats all.

No harm or insults intended.

I am all about the truth and I am sure that this is what were all seeking after.

Because the holy bible tells us to seek and we shall find.

Jesus Christ said I am the way the truth and the life and the only way to the father is through me john 14-6