Abbey Road says, "If I had a dime for every time someone spoke these very words to me... I would be a wealthy kitty-cat."Here are some snappy comebacks to those not-so-original things Mormons say to those who leave the church. There was no available author for this list, but I don't want to take credit for it! Here is a link to the original page.
"I know the Church is true."
"That's not a statement about the Church, that's a statement about YOU."
"You need to have more faith."
"I never thought you'd stoop to using the F-word!"
"But, you used to have a testimony."
"'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.'" (I Corinthians 13:11)
"Oh no, you've fallen away."
"No, I've risen above."
"Don't you want to be with your family in the afterlife?"
"Not if they won't allow me to think my own thoughts."
"But the three witnesses never denied their testimony."
"O. J. Simpson never denied his testimony either."
"Then how do you explain the Book of Mormon?"
"Can my explanation be just as absurd as a guy translating secret golden plates by putting a stolen peep-stone into his hat?"
"Do you think you're smarter than the leaders of the church?"
"I don't think I'm smarter than the College of Cardinals but that doesn't make the Catholic church true."
"But what possible reason could Joseph Smith have had for making it all up?" "You're an intelligent, creative person; I bet you can think of ten possible reasons all by yourself if you put your mind to it."
June 17, 2008 at 6:41 PM
"Yes thats exactly the point"
"Something which is a curse to you?"
"So everyone who has a testimony is childlike? Exactly what King Benjamin told us to become like..thankyou"
"Ahh...great is the fall of those who elavate themselves"
"I'm sorry you had a family that denied your agency"
"OJ had something to lose"
"Yes, but it has to take into account the relative 'flukes' that Joseph managed to write into the Book Of Mormon"
"So you concede that you don't know it all"
"You're the one questioning..."
Sorry Syd..just had to have a crack at some rejoinders...
June 18, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Why do people feel they have the right to even ask us these questons? If I got up to some one and say "Oh dear, you're still believing in fairy tales I see" They would be offended. It's the same with those of us who disbelieve as stongly as they believe.
It's a matter of respect for a persons beliefs, I do respect theirs, if they are happy in their religion more power to them. I just ask the same back!
My personal favorite is "But you would make such a good mormon!"
Um, can I not be a vauable person without Mormonism?
Nicko,
As to Joseph Smith getting a few vauable things right in the book of mormon, so did L. Ron Hubbard in some of his writings. Do you view him as a prophet? Do you believe Nostradamus was a seer of the future because we can switch around words to make his prophecies look true?
June 18, 2008 at 2:34 PM
I heard most of these remarks whilst I attended for two years ..
What else can they say ? They can't respond with simple legitimate points because eveything is stacked against the LDS claims.
David Whitmer said
"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.'
Mormons don't believe God spoke to him again so his testimony of the BofM is invalid.
Its sad when people have to defend Joseph Smith's and most of the subsequent other Leaders child bride polygamous marriages.
Equally frighening is the women in church who obviously dread the idea of polygamy and know that its going to be in store for them if the church is true and yet continue to believe in it .I can't think of a worser thought and dread for a woman and they try to tell me they are happy in church ?
Its a joke.Some of them are amongst the most depressed women I've ever met .I asked them about Polygamy and everyone I asked dreaded it but somehow were trying to think of a valid reason for it and there isn't one.
The back up comment is usually
"We cannot understand many things in this life which is good as it boils down to having FAITH"
I have found that in the LDS faith NOTHING is understandable unless of course you realise that its all a man made nonsense and then everything makes sense.
Fast and testimony meetings were the probably my most disliked experience of church .I was fed up of hearing the same people saying exactly the same thing month after month. I could even recite their testimonies in my head before they said them.
Annoying it was.
I missed the best fast and testimony meeting ever though.An inactive came back and gave them all a telling off ! :) He had to marched off the stand military style.
What do you expect when missionaries befriend these people and dupe them into baptism.
June 19, 2008 at 9:51 AM
Elder Joseph,
I am glad you have experience with women knowing they will have to put up with polygamy in the afterlife. I still don't understand why Nicko denys this... just happy that another person knows what I am talking about.
June 19, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Sydney
Nicko's faith and belief in Mormonism is no more valid than a scientologist , a JW or a Moonie or any other group claiming to be the bearers of the only Truth .
They can see each others ridiculousness from there own standpoint.... but can't see themselves in their own nonsenses.
The one thing I really dislike about some Mormons is the way they try to get acceptance and want to be liked , yet at the same time they have been doing Temple Ordainances which showed Satan doing a deal with and paying the other church leaders(pre 1990) to teach us all falsehoods.
The Book Of Mormon and First Vision declares all other creeds , professors etc as Abominable and Satanic , so why do they want to be accepted by them.
Why do they accept a new testament put together by a satanic church .Why not get together all the 30 different gospels and many letters/epistles and form their own correct cannon.
Instead they tell you they love the bible , but once you find fault with the book of mormon then they will tell the bible is faulty also then ! So they really believe that the bible is faulty and corrupt.
It's a church which has to lie and decieve to get converts and then continue that until they have been sufficiently conditioned that they can't think straight anymore and have fear of life outside of the church.
How many would stay in church if they knew all the issues ?
Not many !
and the polygamy ? Once I checked up on it and saw the treats made to the women in the JOD's and the young ages of them ,I realised that Joseph Smith had turned once decent men into The Most Arrogant and Disgusting thugs.
And the arrogance is still their today.
June 19, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Elder Joseph,
I hate lumping all Mormons into the same bag, but it does seem to me that they will say whatever suits their purpose at the time.
Earlier, Nicko was talking with me about polygamy in the celestial kingdom, and then weeks later he challenged me to prove that it was doctrine. He wasn't denying it earlier? It surprised me.
Sometimes I just shake my head and say, "Whaaa?"
June 19, 2008 at 11:06 AM
"Yes, thats exactly the point."
So you admit then, that it's only something you believe, and not something that can be proven. Point made.
"Something which is a curse to you?"
Of course not. I just prefer to have faith in things that are somewhat remotely possible.
"So everyone who has a testimony is childlike? Exactly what King Benjamin told us to be like... thank you."
Once you have all the facts, you realize you have been treated like a child. No one should tell you what you should and shouldn't talk about.
"OJ had something to lose"
So did the witnesses. Don't deny it.
"Yes, but it has to take into account the relative "flukes" that Joseph managed to write the Book of Mormon."
The Book of Mormon isn't a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination. He could have easily written it... I, personally, believe he had help.
"So you concede you that you don't know it all."
Of course I concede that. The prophet, apostles and other leaders don't know it all either... as a matter of fact, it's pretty obvious by the changes made to the religion througout history that they are flying by the seats of their pants.
"You're the one questioning."
Umm... try it. I bet you could come up with 10 good reasons for him to make it up. For me, Nicko. Give it a shot. It would be more than easy for me to do it.
June 19, 2008 at 7:14 PM
Whats with the hostility Joseph?? I don't think I've ever done anything in here to provoke you to call me someone who believes in the ridiculousness....IF you truly think that, then you must believe that of alot of religions.
And as for your comment on my faith being the same as JW's,etc, etc, I you are right, to a certain extent. JWs for instance do need faith to believe what they do, but they also attempt to 'prove' their religion is true through their missionary efforts. WE on the other hand tell people to take it to God and ask in prayer in supplication. Big difference.
I don't want to bother going on about this anymore because to be honest, some people wanna tag Mormon's with the same brush just the same as some Mormon's wanna tag Postmormons with the same brush. ITs not only insulting, but quite disenchanting for actual conducive and amicable dialogue.
Sydney I think you've taken my line of thought way out of context. My comment on Polygamy in heaven made previously was based on the idea that I have in my head. Later when I called you out on this I asked you to prove to me where in our doctrines this is actually taught. I also never agreed with the statement you once made that 'many wives' would be a reward for righteousness in the Celestial Glory. This is something I don't agree with nor find any evidence for in the doctrines of the church.
Finally on Women being depressed in the church, My wife has been less active and can tell you that her time away from the church was one of total unhappiness. She know about all the historical and doctrinal stuff that you highlight here, and yet still she believes because of spiritual experiences she has had. I know many other friends of mine (all female) who feel the same way.
As for your comment that people like me are trying to be accepted and liked by all people Joseph, I couldn't care less if you accept me or not. And I don't want to be accepted by postmormons like Sydney, just acknowledged and perhaps we could build a friendship based on similarities and differences. IF that annoys you about us Mormons, then I don't know what to say, except that I don't care.
June 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM
nicko
"Whats with the hostility Joseph??"
I'm not as hostlile as the early LDS leaders .Have you seen what they said about other religions in JOD's and other publications ???
shocking stuff...
Yes I'm hostile , I've experienced the subtle manipulative style of many Mormons.One TBM was always praying for me ( prayer circle also)
So I asked her exactly what is she praying for , My well being or conversion to Mormonism ? She replied she never prays for my conversion but prays that I would recognise that the true church has been restored !
So whats the difference .
This is typical of Many Mormons who can't give a straight and honest answer.
"As for your comment that people like me are trying to be accepted and liked by all people Joseph, I couldn't care less if you accept me or not."
I don't accept mormonism and the way its prosletised via manipulation and dishonesty.Thats the whole problem . When converts find out the ugly history it causes many problems and results in resignations for many.The church could spare them that by being honest and upfront in the first place.Similarly there are many trapped in the church sacrificing time and money to something that, when or if they ever they find out its real history and doctrines and blunders , they will quit and take their Tithes with them.
Its a church which is dangerous to family stability and the more its real foundations and practices are exposed the better the choice and decision for future potential converts.
My Bishop asked me not to tell the black brothers in church about what I found in JOD's.Its this kind of thing that I disagree with .They should have been told formally somehow rather than hope they never come across it.
Same with Polygamy and the way the church Hides it and covers it up in its Publications and DVD's .Anyone would think Joseph Smith was a wonderful faithful monogomous husband and yet the history of his secret and deceptive polygamous activities is a disgrace and would cause reasonable to anyone discovering it.
Who really would want to believe in a liar and deceiver like him??
Those early LDS women made great sacrifices in Polygamy believing they were doing Gods will and the church prefers to sweep their memories under the carpet.Not one article of recognition in the Ensign for their great sacrifice and instead depictions of monogomous prophets who were really polygamists.
Your spiritual witness from God to determine Truth is no more valid than the JW's claim to have been converted by The Holy Ghost ( via taking in knowledge).....
"She know about all the historical and doctrinal stuff that you highlight here, and yet still she believes because of spiritual experiences she has had."
Your wife may know about all the historical and doctrinal stuff and thats exactly my point , It will not make her happy but depressed .All the women I spoke to hated the idea of polygamy but yet still believe in Mormonism's claims.Its not my idea of happiness.
The Mormon God is happy to keep this dark depressing shadow cast over his daughters which he suposedly loves.
I really don't see any likeness to the New Testament church which the LDS church claims has been restored.
Had I known what I know or been given truthful answers when I asked then I could saved myself 2 years of church attendance and activities.
June 21, 2008 at 5:43 PM
You know what Joseph, I'm glad you have the supernatural ability to diagnose my wife 1000miles away as depressed and unhappy when in actual fact she is anything but. And as for the supposed 'dark shadow' that hangs over her head because of Mormonism, the only shadow I see is that of ignorant people making judgements on things they obviously know nothing about.
June 22, 2008 at 6:21 AM
Nicko
Perhaps I'm mistaken as to your wifes views and happiness concerning Polygamy .
Is it possible she is too afraid to voice her real view on it , there is alot of pressure to conform and show you are happy in church and not to question anything.
Would you ask her if it makes her happy knowing that you will take on other wives and that she will only be one of many ?
I brought it up in EQ and it was clear to me that this is a taboo subject , one the church would rather brush under the carpet as it has done throughout its teaching Manuals and DVD's.
It always potrays the early LDS leaders as monogomists.Its deception.
I honestly did not meet one LDS women who was happy about it , they all dreaded it ...
June 22, 2008 at 9:40 PM
Elder Joseph,
I do agree with your last statement.
Women in the church (at least women that I have met and spoken with, even those who are still believers) feel the pressure to be the perfect wife and mother. To be the perfect saint. They know that if they are honest with their feelings they will be singled out, and treated as though they don't have enough faith. I have seen this personally, and it's extremely sad. They are sad. Very sad.
When people ask questions about this kind of thing (even men like you mentioned in your EQ meeting) they learn quickly to deal with the questions on their own. It *is* taboo, and it shouldn't be. Things like this should be discussed if the church expects it's members to obey their rules.
June 22, 2008 at 10:05 PM
Well again show me where that is actual doctrine Joseph and I'll be glad to entertain her and discuss it with her. Is there actually any statement by authority which declares that I will have another wife or three or a million in exhaltation? I don't see it.
My wife and my mother in law and my two sister in laws have never been silenced in church. I understand you believe the church is a culture of fear, but I'm yet to see the evidence.
My wife does feel the pressure to be a better mother and wife, but so do all mothers and wives. Its part of life. But you know I feel the pressure to be a better father and husband. But so does my non-member brother.
Again, I fail to see the validity of your statements. My wife wants you to know that she has never liked the idea of polygamy IF we had to practice it right now. She believes that there is no need to practice polygamy now nor should there ever be on Earth in the future.
As far as the next life, she believes like me that first of all there is no real doctrinal statement discussing that I would have another wife. However, if we entertain the thought now, she believes that in the next life, we'll be able to deal with it rationally then, but for now, why worry?
She says quote 'what does it matter now?'
As far as being a good mother and stuff, she wants you to know that shes never felt pressure from the church to be a better mum and wife, just an internal one to have a better relationship with god. She believes that whether you are in the church or not, all Mothers everywhere wants the best for their kids and feels the pressure to provide the best care, the best economic independence. In the end, the pressure is not a church thing, but something all mothers bring to themselves as the first child emerges from the womb.
I have to agree with her statement. My sister in law is very stressed at the moment (not a member) because she can't spend more time with her children because she is working full time. Its sad perhaps, but all parents should feel the pressure to do better for their kids.
I don't agree with the statement that the church pressures mothers and fathers to be better. I do agree that it provides spiritual tools to give them some hope that their endless nappy changes and housework and sleepless nights is for very special reasons.
June 24, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Nicko
I'm really encouraged by your wifes statement and views concerning polygamy.This is one major stumbling block for me and why I quit attending church .It took two years before my bishop finally admitted that Polygamy is the order of the church and that its only Law which has temporarily suspended it.Prior to that I was being brushed off with all sorts of excuses like , oh its in the past , or Abraham did it (as if that makes it ok for the church or even Warren Jeffs church ) , or its just to look after widows , or we don't know much about it , or we don't do that anymore.
All deceptive statements.Its a major doctrine and belief of the LDS church.
Its strange when a church won't be open about its real beliefs and instead tries to appear like just another regular church.
you said
"Well again show me where that is actual doctrine Joseph and I'll be glad to entertain her and discuss it with her. Is there actually any statement by authority which declares that I will have another wife or three or a million in exhaltation? I don't see it."
1 There are lots of statements in the JOD's that only polygamists will get to become Gods.Thats what you believe is Exhaltation.
2 There is also the belief that someone is going to have to take on all the unmarried single women in the LDS church in the next life.
3 Widowed men are marrying their second or more earthly wives in the Temple and sealing them , expecting to be polygamists in the next life.However I'm not aware that their first wife gave permission as it states in D&C 132:61
'...if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent,'
There are also complications as to the term virgin .Why does a mormon man seal his second wife for eternity if she too may have been married before or widowed and not a virgin?
There is no LDS scriptural support for sealing additional wives.Its a false practice.
There is no scriptural support that says a single LDS female will marry in the next life and yet they are told this and not to worry !
In fact the church has taught that single people will be Angels.
Moroni must have not found himself a wife .
You said
"As far as the next life, she believes like me that first of all there is no real doctrinal statement discussing that I would have another wife. However, if we entertain the thought now, she believes that in the next life, we'll be able to deal with it rationally then, but for now, why worry? "
I don't believe we can deal with it.Jesus asked us to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven "
If we can't stomach/accept polygamy supposedly a heavenly practice on earth then why did Jesus teach us to pray 'thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven .'
Your wife could be a very obedient member of Warren Jeffs religion , conceding and accepting Polygamy as some kind of heavenly order.This is how he is able to do what he does,you need good obedient indoctrinated members.He has conditioned his females all their lives to be prepared for the heavenly order and that its necessary for their 'Salvation/Exhaltation' whilst they think they have been given revelation about it.
"She says quote 'what does it matter now?'"
It matters because the church seems to want to brush it aside whilst secretly ackowledging its existence and coming restoration ( thats why they practice the polygamous sealings in The Temple).